Graham Parkes (Before Your Eyes) On Turning Blinks into a Game Mechanic
Episode Description
Graham Parkes is the Writer and Creative Director of Before Your Eyes, a game about the fleeting nature of life that garnered attention because of its eye-tracking technology and the integration of blinks into the narrative of the gameplay.
We talk to Graham about trying to capture the fleeting nature of life in a video game. We also discuss how Graham felt he and his friends working on the project needed to grow up before they could tell the story they wanted to in the game.
Plus, an OS classic: talking about our personal value outside of the art that we make.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can follow Graham Parkes here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:19
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I am with my co host, Ben Thor. And Ben, today, we have another exciting conversation to add to the docket this time about a game called before your eyes. And could you tell us a little bit about what this one is all about?
Ben 0:44
Yeah, Phil, I feel like this is an interview I was really excited for because this is one of the games that I played, just in the last kind of year that just stood out to me, the cool kind of, like gets you in the door piece of it is the game tracks your eye movements, and uses that to tell its story. And so kind of the setup, the story, the bit is that you are a character who has died, you're going to the afterlife, you're kind of in the afterlife. And you're about to kind of figure out whether or not you're, you're basically going to heaven or to hell. And you have to tell your story. And so what happens is you keep being put back into moments throughout your life. But anytime you blink as a player, the blinks will shoot you forward in time. And so it creates this like great kind of storytelling tension where there will be these moments that you really want to sit in and spend time in because there's like interesting story elements, or there's something that's really beautiful, but you can't stop yourself from blinking. And so eventually you're going to blink, and it's going to move the story forward. And I think that mechanic could have been a gimmick, but here is just like used really, really beautifully to tell the story about kind of life flashing before your eyes.
Phil 2:06
Yeah, 100%. You know, we talked to the writer and creative director, Graham parks, about kind of how they conceptualized before your eyes from that mechanic of like, you know, using the eye blinks to move forward in time, and something that I was really fascinated about playing the game and then talking to Graham, about the game was this kind of like that tension and friction, that you're talking about Ben of like, how do you write a story or a narrative, where the player has such like an impactful muck mechanics that they can impact how the story progresses? And like, you know, how do you make sure that you're kind of conveying what you're trying to say, when you know, somebody might not see everything that you've written? I felt like that was like a really, it made for some really compelling moments throughout the game. And you know, it's about the length of a of like a movie, maybe like an hour and a half, two hours long. You can play it in a sitting easily. And yeah, Graham just had a lot of really interesting things to say not only about like, the mechanics of the game, but also, I think a big part that we were really drawn to was what we what we've been talking about a lot this season of like, the reality of the dream. So like, in this case with before your eyes, the team kind of all grew up together, and we're making this game, you know, in their early 20s. And they talk a lot about how much they needed to grow in order to to make this game, you know, the awesome piece of art that it is.
Ben 3:43
Yeah, I feel like you and I have had this conversation, like a lot over the years, like even pre O 's. You know, we're sitting in writing workshops, and we're talking about how I feel like I don't have the like depth sometimes to write the story that I want to write or that I don't really know, that I'm like, ready to like write the piece that I'm looking for. And I feel like a piece that kind of keeps coming up in those, you know, especially like undergrad writing courses is like, damn, I guess we got to like live a little bit before you're like really ready to say something meaningful. And I think, you know, Graham kind of talks about that here with just like, you know, maybe we just needed to like put some of this some of the elements of this story, like in the oven a little bit longer, just so that they were ready to to kind of come out.
Phil 4:32
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, this conversation covers so much about not only game development, but what it means to be an artist and kind of how you navigate, you know, a budding career after success. Yeah, just a lot of really elucidating details in this conversation, and I'm really excited to, you know, to present it to everybody. So how about we jump right into it and we can talk about all the good stuff and the post bla
Ben 5:29
I were talking today to Graham parks who is the writer and creative director of before your eyes. Before your eyes is a video game about the fleeting nature of life that garnered attention because of its eye tracking technology, and the integration of blinks into the narrative of the gameplay. The game won a BAFTA in 2022, for games beyond entertainment. Graham, thank you so much for coming and talking to us.
Graham Parkes 5:53
Thank you guys for having me. This is awesome.
Ben 5:56
I want to start by maybe just getting you to talk about how before your eyes started, my understanding is that it started as a student project called close your Can you talk to us about that kind of initial game?
Graham Parkes 6:10
Yeah, yeah, that was well worth who is a. I've known him since seventh grade, we took the bus to school together. And a lot of, you know, spent our high school years playing games together, talking about games and obsessing over video games, I went to NYU to study Dramatic Writing, I ended up minoring in game design, they're taking classes at the Game Center, but he was at USC in the game design program, and he was he was one that was going to go do it. He was always, you know, his dream. And this was actually started as his thesis project. And he sort of, I think, it came from a few different places that came from I think he was playing you know, that was a really fun time for indie games, the Blendo games stuff was coming out, I don't know if you guys know, like 30 Flights of Loving gravity's bone. But they were these very, kind of wild little short games that featured cutting in this really kind of French New Wave weird way where you know, games very, it was very rare to see a game that suddenly jump uses the uses the language of cinema, with the cut, obviously cinema so much about the cut, and will realize that commercial webcams could do with with with these plugins that were readily available, could do face tracking. And I think he just had this idea of what if we took it one step further from what he was excited about in the Blendo, games, games, but let's give the cut to the player through their eyes. And so that was really, I think, the first inception of all of it was really this sort of blending of how can technology and, you know, sort of storytelling me, and you know, because of our relationship, he, he called me up very early in that process, when he was trying to put that together and knowing that it was going to have to be a very narrative game and knowing that I would, you know, chomping at the bit to do anything like that. And for me, it was like, you know, I was taking these classes at NYU, but I'm not technical. And I always felt a little on the outside where I was just like, such a, I was such an indie game fan. But I never felt like it's just a more as a pure writer, and film director, I always felt like, Man, I would really love to work in games, but I probably will never get that option. So when he called and it was sort of like, as soon as I heard about this project, I was like, That's my dream project like that, that combines everything that that I'm interested in into one and kind of just kind of jumped on and we made this little 10 minute version of it. That was his, his thesis project. And that sort of started this whole journey that then took from from that point seven years to release before your eyes.
Ben 8:47
Yeah, I think one of the things that really struck me in the kind of almost immediately as I started playing it is that a game like this and a game, I think, that uses a new technology, it's easy, I think, to understand that, like, it could have been in some ways a gimmick. But to me, what really stood out is that the narrative is so closely tied to this mechanic. You know, for those who are listening and have not played the game, you know, you are dead, and you're looking back on your life and the blinks, will pull you out of the moments, where you're kind of seeing into your past life. And so it kind of creates this tension, where at least for me, I was kind of holding my eyes open as long as I could to try to stay in these moments, in a way that felt like again, very rich. And so I'm wondering as a you know, as the writer and as the Narrative Director, like, what is that? When did you start kind of thinking about how do I make this resonate? So it's not just a kind of simple okay, I'm, I'm interacting with this game with my eyes, but it's actually saying something about like, the themes of the game.
Graham Parkes 9:56
I don't even really remember what how soon we got there. But it was within a matter of like a phone call that we were talking about, using the blank as the cut that we sort of, and I think it was, it was based on things that, you know, well was thinking about, and it's in his life, you know, going through situations, with with with family members and health issues, I think he was thinking a lot about mortality. And very quickly, we got to this idea of, like, let's do a whole life. And this idea of life flashing before your eyes sort of came to us, if I well, that sort of that sort of right there. And, and what was so sort of perfect about the idea and why it was like this one idea, you hear about, you know, when you're, you know, it really was the strength of an idea that was that sort of Chris, that it kept us on board for seven years, and we made so many bad versions of it, but it was always this idea of just to kind of as you're talking about there like that, to find this gameplay mechanic that is inherently can only be done, it really can only be expressed through the mechanic, but it is it is so linked to the idea that time is fleeting, you cannot hold to every onto every moment, inevitable, you're gonna have to blink just like inevitably, you're gonna have to die. And it just felt sort of like instantly powerful. Without much, you know, I think good ideas just sort of, they sort of come they sort of, they don't take much work to to explain what makes them good. It's just simplicity to that, that you like, as soon as I think we just arrived on that, again, I think was in like a 20 minute conversation. I was like, Yeah, that's what we'll do, we'll do somebody's life is flashing before their eyes, and you'll, you'll be a kid and then you'll blink and you'll be older and they'll blink of a will. And we'll go from birth to death. And that'll be the game. And as soon as we as like, okay, great. And then we basically wrote then made a million versions of that. And, like, there are bits, there were so many different stories that we kept changing, because it was also we were growing as as, as, as artists and as and as people like we starting is like, you know, college kids who, you know, a lot of the writing, I felt like those early versions of it. I mean, the art is terrible. The I mean, everything about it is is is is a student project, and on and I can speak to myself, I shouldn't say it's terrible. I mean, it was, it was its student art, and but my writing was very much, you know, trying to pull out big themes that I wasn't, you know, ready to do very pretentious, very, you know, modeling and sort of, like, you know, looking at, at at sort of trying to do this death and death, I was into kind of like Arthur Miller trying to do like a death, death with the salesman kind of thing. And just kind of going for things. And it again, I look back, I mean, it's sort of charming to look back at these early versions of the game. But what was funny about it was like, and we sort of knew, like, Oh, we didn't knock that out of the park, necessarily, at least because because again, at that you're at that age where like, every, every two weeks, you're becoming like, you feel like the person you were two weeks ago was so cringy you know what I mean? Like, you're just you're, you're evolving so quickly, that I think very quickly, we were like, but we took it, you know, ended up, we ended up taking it to IndieCade and then getting to demo it. And people were coming and playing what you know, really was, I think, you know, like a very rough piece of work, but it was making people cry. And it was really like, Whoa, there's something here, even in this super rough form. With just the emotion of trying to hold your eyes open, you close your eyes, you open your eyes, and you're older, that just again, it's sort of like the power of just a good simple idea is that even if done badly, it can it can elicit emotion. And I think when we saw that it ended up winning the developers choice there. And then we did like another version of it, then it went to the IGF and got the student award there. And that was like a totally different script, like we wrote, like, because because every time we were like, okay, so people like that, but it can be better. And then we did another one. And it kept going like that, where it was like, but the one thing that always stayed true was the thing you just described, which was the sort of central metaphor and the way that the sort of mechanic is so intrinsically tied to that metaphor.
Phil 14:19
That's interesting. I mean, I was before hopping on the call I was looking at some footage of close your and I was thinking about kind of what you're talking about of, you know, the situations that at least in the video that I saw were a lot different than
Graham Parkes 14:34
what version you were even looking at because you might have been looking at the Kickstarter version you ever looking at there's literally like three or four distinct closers even before we change the name quota. But anyway, I but yeah, go ahead.
Phil 14:46
Yeah, I mean, I it was it was some kind of like tester reaction video kind
Graham Parkes 14:52
of thing. Might have been that might have been the indicator. Yeah, I think it might have been
Phil 14:56
indicated and I it was interesting, because it's like For the situations that were in there, I could see some of the DNA from like what ultimately became before your eyes in there. But obviously, like you're describing the situations are a lot different than I imagine, over the years of development a lot changed. And, you know, something that I was thinking about while watching it. As you know, one of my favorite directors is Richard Linklater, you know, this director who has made a lot of a lot of projects, or who was interested in time kind of as a character within within the narrative. And, you know, I think we could make analogues to something like boyhood specifically, like you're kind of getting these different scenes from somebody's life. And I'm curious, like, for you, as the writer on this project, you know, what was that experience? Like, kind of writing this thing that you that, you know, when you're writing it, like, a character might not see the whole scene? Or like, they might kind of flip past it? I'm curious, like, what, maybe what were your? Where's your mind at with
Graham Parkes 15:57
that? Yeah, yeah, well, that is a lot to discuss there. I mean, that was sort of well, I'll speak first to sort of a design thing that was that that was interesting. And that that version that you were watching the versions we used to take to festivals, I will also say as a caveat, when I talked about the really bad version, the really rough version was something that was just his student project. At the time, we were taking it to indicate and to enter the student awards, like we, it was coming along, so I don't want to I don't want to be like, fully trashing those versions, like they weren't, they were absolutely necessary. And there's some really good work. And in those versions, I just remember the very first one that wouldn't even exist on the internet, like literally had, like, kill people, like with little, like, was literally like, they don't have an artist, like just pull like a, like a generic, you know, Unity like shape. And it was like it was it was basically as rough as it can be anyway, going. To that question, yeah, that was such a, it was interesting, because in those versions that we that was that we bring to festivals, literally every single blank jumped you forward in the story. And that was like a nightmare, obviously, as a writer, because like, it was sort of interesting, in a weird way. And it was something that was kind of cool. And this kind of, you know, people would get these completely different impressions of things. And there was something kind of cool and Rorschach shocky about it, if like, everyone's going to sit down and like might accidentally blink through this whole section, and then not understand this. But then. But then, because they miss that they have this, they had this other theory. So there was a, there was something cool within that festival environment, especially with like a really short version of the story that was like 10 minutes long, where it was sort of like more of just this experience to just experience your life flashing before your eyes. And if you missed up, it was it was sort of like it worked within this little quick hit of something. But when we started thinking about we kick started it and started to think about how we're going to do like a longer kind of that the aspiration was to kind of like a movie length version of it, that is sort of like around an hour to two hours. Very quickly, it became clear that like, you cannot tell an actual felt like an actual story that way. Because if if if I don't know, if you've skipped that scene that I can't call back to something, you know, that's the foundation of storytelling is, on some level, building a structure. And so I think Bella Mastix was the lead designer who came on later in the process, once we sort of had real funds to actually pursue the real version of the game that would that became before your eyes, I'm going to sort of like all those other versions, we kind of consider almost like the short films that we that we made. And then we kind of got greenlit to do the feature adaptation. Very quickly, he realized, you know, we he kind of we, with his help, as a designer, kind of zeroed in on that problem of like, okay, so how do we keep you in scenes for the right amount of time, but then still, but it was always we can't lose, it was sort of like our best thing was also, which was that jumping through time feeling like time was just jumping, and I'm not in control. It was sort of like the best thing, but it was also the thing that was making it kind of impossible to tell a story. So it was like this, it was this real process of how do we kind of retain the cap some of that chaos. But then still give me the space to know, okay, I know that that player is gonna hear that line. And I know that they're gonna get that. And so, after a lot of iterating, we got to that metronome that comes out in the in the middle of the scene. So so when you play it before the metronome comes up, you actually are blinking on stuff and that's revealing things, you're doing little lighter actions. And then that metronome comes up and people are still talking the scene is still existing, but that's telling you as the player Watch out, now the staring caught contest is on next time you blink, you're gonna jump forward. And as a writer that's like totally, you know, broke open how I could write scenes because it was like I could, you know, think about the very concise stuff that I need you to know about and put it on this side of the metronome. Um, but then I could put all this more kind of character worldbuilding just enjoying being in the moment stuff on the other side. And I think as a writer, that was almost such a blessing because normally you're constantly cutting your scenes down to the shortest versions of themselves, because that's what good write Dramatic Writing is, in a lot of ways, like the most concise storytelling wins. But suddenly, I had this excuse to be like, why now we get to just live and just let people play. And we had such a great cast.
Eric and Sarah, Sarah burns and Eric Edelstein play your your your mom and your your dad and they I've worked with them and I filmmakers who I've worked with worked with them on a short film. And they have such natural chemistry that I could just sort of let them go like, what kind of kind of write stuff but then they would just sort of riff. And I would just say, you know, keep going, because basically, we want, we wanted some of those dialogue scenes to last way past when you could possibly hold your eyes open for so it was actually kind of really cool. It was it was a really, it was a cool because it was it was freeing to be able to write those those parts of scenes where it was sort of like, just let the characters live. And just keep talking, which is something that I you know, I'll probably never get to do again, because it was very unique to that project.
Ben 21:14
Yeah, I almost want to ask you this question about Phil. And I have been, I think, struggling with visual novels for a while. So we'll play a good amount of them. And a lot of times, I think I feel like the visual novels are often I think, trying to offer you a just an added layer of interaction to try to make the story pop. And I think this is the first time we've played something where it felt like uniquely moving in a way that I was like, Oh, this is more than just a movie or more than just a book. And you know, it's doing something with that interaction that does actually like elevate what's happening here.
Graham Parkes 21:54
That's first Yeah. Thank you. And I Yeah,
Ben 21:56
and I don't know, I mean, like, what does this mean for you as a storyteller moving forward? Like, are you going to, like, how are you going to get that same high again, I guess, is my question.
Graham Parkes 22:08
Yeah. Wow. All right. No, totally. And I mean, I think that there are, you know, to the first point, point, a part of your question, I think there were a lot of games that, you know, we we often looked more for inspiration to things that are not as much visual novels, but I know, things that we're always looking for those games, you know, I love games, where I love narrative games. That's why I'm interested in games, I'm interested in games as a storytelling medium primarily. Personally, I play all sorts of games, but I was always interested in games, where the act of playing them is, is the act of telling the story, you know, things like Papers, Please, or her story, or, you know, things like Florence was its mobile game, or if you guys played that was really, really inspirational, where, you know, no words. But all of those were these like, little, you know, mechanical metaphors, you know, and that's sort of what we were playing with, in before your eyes of like, How can a mechanic sort of exist, you know, I think mechanics are often used as as, and which is great, but they're about like, they're, they're, you know, games are designed to just make deep and interesting mechanics versus a mechanic that is serving as a metaphor for something in life. And so there's a few games that we were able to look to where it was, like, what they're doing with the mechanic is the kind of thing we're trying to do with the mechanic. And those are always more of the inspiration for us then, then, like visual novels, or things that were like, maybe seemed more like these story games. But in terms of going forward, that's a really, really great question. I mean, that's the, that's the, that's the big kind of thing we've been wrestling with as a team, because we are we are, we've, we've started on a new game. It's gonna be really awesome. I'm not ready to talk about it too much. But it was it was definitely for as we were searching for what that next game was going to be, I think we were living in the shadow of that that idea is, is really perfect and succinct, and it was sort of having to go, we're not going to, we're not going to find another one of those. And we have to, we have to be willing to explore other things that make us interested about games. So I think that we've we've finally found something and it's going to be we're very much motivated from, you know, from the same place of like, trying to find ways that games can tell stories and cinematic ways that feel can only be done in in this medium. So that's still our kind of animating principle. But yeah, the kind of sickness of that idea for a while we were searching and it was sort of like, you sometimes have to realize like, it's funny, that sophomore the sophomore moment that you've it's like sophomore effort is So always like a sole source, you know, you, you come out, you do something, and it really works. And it's like, well, we had seven years to make that one now we have, you know, two and a half to make the next one. And so there is this moment of like, everyone going, there was a while when we would pitch or talk or bring ideas would be like, but it's not like before, but before your eyes worked in all these ways, and it had to almost I almost, we had to make a rule of like, do not bring up before eyes when we talk about other games, because it's like, it's like, if you're constantly living, it's like living in the past. It's like, don't bring up your ex, your current girlfriend kind of thing. You gotta let gotta let the new relationship, uh, a forum on its own terms. So that's been a very interesting process of like, so you know, I think I think we've actually found our way out of that woods. I wish I could talk more in detail about it. But yeah, it's again, yeah, I go back to will and just being like, will sort of really stumbled upon. You know, he's a really brilliant thinker. And yeah, he's just got a mind that puts things together that you wouldn't, you know, he kind of combines things in a way that you would no one else would, and I just, you know, credit to him for all those years ago going, Oh, what if we did this, you know, and seven years later, here we are.
Phil 26:14
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious, like, you know, so Ben and I, we both come from a writing background, got, we went to like, I did an MFA, he did an MA in, like prose and nonfiction writing. And we're obviously really interested in like interactive fiction and interactive projects, like, like before your eyes, something that I'm curious about for you, as somebody who also maybe came from more of that traditional side of like, screenwriting. Now that you've made a game, and you're working on this next project, you know, what's kind of your, like relationship to the genre, as a writer? Is that one that, um, you know, obviously, you're making this new game? Is this kind of like, where you see a lot more of your work going? Are you still kind of somebody who's doing a little bit of of everything?
Graham Parkes 27:00
Yeah, I, you know, I'm still developing, like a film project with. And so I'm still trying to keep that up. But really, you know, I never expected that.
You, I don't think we, I don't think we knew what to expect, you know, it was it was sort of this passion project for so long, that we did get investment, it kind of became our jobs for like, two, three years, becoming more full time. But we didn't really know what to expect, I think that it was very much a situation of like, we're going to reach the end of our budget, the game comes out, and who knows, maybe we're all going spread going or, you know, because it's a very hard business, you know, indie games, it's not like, a lot of amazing games, you know, games that I love, unfortunately, you know, can get lost in the Steam Store, or whatever. And I think we got, we got very lucky. Where it did, it did sort of, it kind of lit that fuse, and it blew up and our relationship with Skype. And our publisher was really useful in that. And yeah, we found ourselves in a position where it's like, oh, we can actually make a go of this and do another one. And so that's really the focus personally, for me right now. Still have other projects that I've been developing that I'm going to continue to develop, but like, yeah, we're kind of all. All systems go on this next title Will's actually doing another game, we'll have another project. So we're kind of working side by side on on two things. But a lot of the, you know, the core team from Porter eyes is working on this next title that feels a lot of ways connected to before your eyes. And yeah, I think for me, it's again, as I said earlier, in the interview, it's like, you know, I come from a film background. My family's in film, like I always, that's more of like something where I expected to, to end up. But I always sort of was so fascinated by games, like they were the kind of forbidden fruit for me, like my parents never supported, like, let me have consoles until really late. And it was like, you know, very stringent time when I could play. And it was always like, so it was always like, it always felt like this thing to that, like, you know, me and my friends were like saw as as cool in the future. But like, you know, I'm sure you guys as gamers, it's like there's this kind of way that it becomes your kind of punk rock or something where you're like in high school where it's like this thing that you understand that you know, that I think that there but I really did feel like from a from early on, like playing you know, shout of the Colossus and stuff at friend's house and being like, this is the next like, this is the next artistic medium. Like this is the most powerful medium. I never expected that I would get in the opportunity to make them so it was sort of like I just bought when this project came along. I was like, oh, better hold on to this thing for dear life because like that would be the coolest thing in the world to be able to make games you know, that's kind of like it. So yeah, so right now it's pretty awesome. I feel very like humbled and lucky to be in a position That, like, we get to make another game and like, who knows, I feel the same way about this one, I did the last one where it's like, we'll make it, and maybe it'll just, you know, maybe that'll be the last one we make. But then we got to make two, you know, I don't, you know, we're just kind of taking, like, this one's a little bigger, bigger budget, we're trying to do stuff, you know, that's a little more ambitious, still keeping the ambition, you know, in check of like, we're still very much in India, and we're not trying to win, I would never be interested in like making anything that's, that really needs to like recoup some massive amount. So it can't, because I always want to be able to make stuff that's experimental. And that is, that's pushing the medium. But yeah, I just want to see how much we can do. And the other thing that's exciting for me is like, I just love the medium, you know, I love seeing like, like a new indie game that does something new is even if I don't like it, you know, like, there are games that I play where it's like, I don't think that really worked. Or like, you know, and I won't bring them up, because, but when I see like a movie that I don't like, I just feel like, oh, that I wasted my time. But with it with a game, especially like a more, you know, something, you know, in the indie space of annapurnas, or putting out or things like these smaller indie games that are experimental, even if they don't really work, you feel like, well, thank you for making that. Because someone had to find out if that worked. And that little piece of that really worked. And so I always feel like, I always felt that was before I suppose like, if this fails, it's a noble failure, and someone's gonna find some part of this thing and be like, yeah, they got it wrong. But I know, I know how to get it right. And he just feels like we're at this point in the medium where it's like early film, where it's like, there's just still so you're still kind of like charting new tech. So it feels like just being experimental at all, even if you're completely flailing and failing, there's still merit in that, you know, what I mean? Where it's like, how many more bad movies do we need, you know, so there's something that feels really exciting about, you know, there's something humbling about knowing that, like, you are partaking in a in a in a language that other other designers and game makers are going to be, even if they're saying, fuck that, I hate that. There is an active discourse going on, like, because we are all making up this medium right now, in a way, you know.
Ben 32:12
Yeah, I, the thing that I think I really love about kind of what you're saying, is the idea of like, it's okay to like fail in the art space, especially if it's in this experimental space, it's like kind of trying to do something and say something, I'm gonna loop it back into before your eyes, which to me, in some ways, I think, felt like one of the the grand themes as you get towards the end is that like, you don't have to achieve some great thing. You know, we come to find out that the kind of main character of the game is not an older artist who has lived this full life, but is in fact a kid and is making this stuff up. Because they're dying young, and they want to feel like they've had some kind of full life that that's amounted to something. And the game in some ways, they think, kind of says, no, no, like this, this life that you've had the short life that you've had, is still worth something that you don't need to do all this other stuff, or achieve all this other stuff. And I'm wondering how that kind of works with your own life as an artist, because I think that's such a common feeling of, well, if I don't produce something, and if I don't get it in front of a lot of eyeballs, or if I don't, you know, truly find a way to express this thing, then I have failed and what have I done with my life? And so can you kind of unpack that because it feels like it's in the game? And I kind of feel like it's in what you're saying right there.
Graham Parkes 33:31
Totally. I mean, you probably have have have zeroed in on the fact that like Yeah, I mean, I think myself and I think a lot of my collaborators is on the game who were you know, all in a lot of them were like old high school friends and we were definitely always the like, you know, the art kind of like art already kids who did have those sort of that those sort of ambitions and I think we were making this game through our 20s and failing you know, before that narrative that you're sort of describing I think that we were right before the you know, it was a sort of night is darkest before the dawn moment on the game where like we had our kind of glory years of the student project winning these those student awards and stuff and that was sort of like oh cool, we were gonna we got we're gonna make the next gone home let's do it. And then it was like kickstarted we asked for way too little money. Way too little money, we got it. It was like and we were and it was being funded by like, not like family and friends but it was like people who are actually getting angry at you if you don't produce and then very quickly, you know, the sort of pressure on all of us especially because as old friends and as people with these big egos you know that or you know, kind of all these aspirations but then suddenly the pressure and suddenly there was infighting and suddenly it was other people's getting other opportunities and their and other careers, you know, all over careers also, because it was never something we could go full time on. So it was always like, trying to find these nights and weekends and kind of piece it together to try to get this thing done. And it just sort of just became this big sort of stress on all of our lives. And I think it honestly like it, you know, I like to be on these podcasts, like very open about it, because it's like, I don't know, maybe, you know, the creative process is really hard, working with friends can be amazing. But it can also be like, really hard. And when you feel that you've promised something, exactly, as you're talking about like that, you know, you had this promise out of the gate, that weight of expectation can just really almost just like shut you down. And I think that there were literally, you know, there were years where it was just like the car, you know, we were just like, it was literally years where we were sort of stuck in the, in the mud, like the tires spinning. And I think that realizing that like a career isn't going to work like that, it's not going to be you come out of the gate, and then you achieve and you're a rock star at this and everything and everyone loves you. And also you wouldn't even want that, like people who have that experience. It's not, it's not you know, it's nothing that you want. And going through that that long experience of like, then having the disappointment and you know, just sort of the change, I think for all of us that were going on of just sort of like learning the things that actually matter in life like as, as people that we're so focused on, on this sort of artistic achievement, it's something that I still am constantly, I almost feel like we arrived at this theme, which was this message that we really need to say to ourselves to like become better humans, which is like, this is all just a career, that it's fun, it's great, feel proud, but it's not what makes you a good person, it being good or bad. It's not it's not the thing that and I think that's something that that message, you know, arriving at that, through that process of humbling ourselves through really failing, like, and like, I sometimes feel like I can talk about the success. Like, sometimes I feel like people don't know how much we were failing. Like, I can't really even explain to you how much we're failing, like, meetings that were ending in yelling meetings that were like, like, like, our friendship, spiraling, you know, our, you know, like, like, just things and we're all good now. Like, everything is good. It's just like, it's like, it's a real family situation. But, but it was a it was a it was also a rough time. It's like right after college people are so you know, figuring themselves out. But um, yeah, so I think arriving it that that that that message resonated for us. And then it was really beautiful to see that I think that was a message that a lot of people do need to hear and in different ways, you know what I mean? Whether that's with an artistic career, or if that's with, you know, I think that it resonated with a lot of high schoolers, because, you know, like, we got a little kind of moment on tick tock, where kids were playing it and talking about it. And that was really beautiful to see that, you know, it was, I think it was resonating that such a time when you are so focused on your future, yet. Everyone's just talking about your future. It's all about, you know, what are your grades going to be? What are you going to be when you grow up and all that and like, and, and, and really from our, you know, from, you know, about elementary school until the end of, you know, to the rest of our lives, it's basically what's next, what's next? What's next? How are you cap? Like, when you say, how are you doing? You know, and at least in the world, I grew up and the thing that people say is, oh, it's great. I'm really excited that, you know, I might get a promotion or I'm thinking about, it's always some sort of future plan. It's often to do with career. And I think that, yeah, the game, that message ended up speaking to maybe speaking to something that
that our culture needed to be reminded of, and I think we arrived there because we needed to not any way that we were like these, of all beings that like know that it's like we need we probably more than anyone else needed that reminder. You know,
Phil 38:45
that's interesting. And I mean, I love that answer. I love the honesty of that, because, you know, something that Ben and I have been talking to a lot of creators on this season specifically about is this kind of, like, the reality of the quote unquote, dream of like, kind of doing this thing that you love, or especially in a creative endeavor where on the outside, you know, it can feel like, like you're saying, like, everything is going perfectly like these people aren't struggling, they, they before your eyes, they just made it and I was great. And they had a great time. You know, and I really, I really appreciate that because it's like, you know, Ben and I think I was just thinking while you're talking like I think I've known Ben for like a decade now. And we've been collaborating on projects since like 2015 or 2014 across multiple podcast projects across different like scripted kind of shows and things like that and yeah, it's one of those things where like this podcast for instance, Ben and I both have a full time job and we do this on the side and you kind of just have to that's what it was for us
Graham Parkes 39:43
for forever
Phil 39:44
like make it work
Graham Parkes 39:46
right but you guys are making it work. We weren't
Phil 39:50
well, you don't you don't see what's happening behind the scenes just like you're saying with before your thing.
Ben 39:56
Before you logged on. He was just constantly out he was like You're such a little bitch. It was like horrifying.
Phil 40:04
But that's interesting. I mean, I think especially the fact that like you all had been friends since high school, like I was so curious about, like, what that experience must be like, especially to, for such a long process, like the gestation period for a game assist. Yeah,
Graham Parkes 40:19
I mean, and the team changed. And it was very helpful. Like, when we brought like bringing on belt, like, when we got this investment from, it was sort of this lucky thing, where it kind of looks like we're heading to the cliff. But I think there was always this thing in all of us, where we would read our, you know, read our Kickstarter comments that were just trashing us. And we would just be like, we do not want to, like, we do not want to be like, also just belief in like, I know that this game, but it's like, we do not want to wait, we had the option, like what we, we were, what we were on route to doing was like, we're gonna just do the best we can. And we're gonna, I remember just saying, like, Blood Oath between everybody like we are going to give, if it's literally just the Kickstarter backers play it, we are not going to be one of those failed Kickstarter, we are going to give them some version of what they promised because we asked for way too little money, like and so it was all started, we all had to do it, you know, it was all we were way past the point where we're using the Kickstarter money. So it was like, it was like, it was just our, you know, sort of sweat equity or whatever. But we were definitely going to do something. But there was always this little part of me that didn't want to do that, because that's like it because I knew that there was like that potential. And it was just a lucky thing, where on my on the film side, I took a meeting at this company called riot, Ry O T. Not Riot Games, we always have to make sure that but then they do like they were they were bought by Verizon, but they they kind of came up in the festival space doing like really cool docks. And you know, kind of like dogs that like look at social issues and things and then did a lot of like VR. And not even really in the game space. They were really in the more kind of like, VR, AR and then documentary space. But you know, I met there, and I talked about the project, just like in conversation there. And this producer, Jake, Sally, they're just not really interested in it. And it was sort of like, then we had kind of repeat meeting. And it was this, it really was like this kind of very lucky. Like, I think if Jake hadn't sort of taken an interest, you know, we probably would have just done that version of the game, which was just kind of like put something out that we know, maybe it would have, you know, people would have talked about or something but it would not have been nearly the game that it was, you know, would have been some little cheap little like, more like the stuff we were bringing to festivals, but Jake saw something in it. And and and, you know, sort of encouraged us at that point, Ali, who was the sort of lead composer and had become the kind of project director kind of really also kind of rose up and kind of became another director with Will and I and we yeah, we kind of were like, we got this new lease on life, like, like we can, like suddenly, it was like we had this opportunity to go in and pitch this to actually get a to actually ask for the amount of money that we should have asked for the, from the Kickstarter. And they were part of Verizon, and who knew who we didn't know. But Jake was helping us through putting this pitch together. And it turned out, they wanted to do it. And it was like they hadn't ever done really a game before. But we were going to do a VR version of it as well, we're gonna do a slice of it that we could take to festivals and be part of their kind of VR thing. And we were going to do that actually in South by 2020. But then we know what happened there. But yeah, that really changed everything, you know, was like, and it was, you know, it wasn't like suddenly were, you know, all rich it was it was still for a lot of us still part time. But it was just that structure of like, it really was more than me the funds, obviously, to be able to pay artists that we got to bring on Bella who we can relate designer, we, you know, obviously the budget, but it was also having this outside, you know, having been these artists were when you're left alone, it's just arguing about what's the best version of something. And when you suddenly have this outside, you know, it's the power of the deadline and somebody who feels like an adult who is like, you know, we need this by this in this day, then suddenly everybody starts acting a lot better. And then it was also about bringing on a outside collaborators like Bella and then and then lots of people join from that. Bill and Terry, our sound lead, Richard beer, our engineer, our great artists, Connolly. Lots of great people we were then starting to hire up because we had this money and there was also bringing in those outside people who weren't so close to the sort of like
family toxic family dynamics, I think really helped us you know, become professionals. You know, For the first time and realize like, this is a real thing we have to put on our, you know, we really, we have to really rise to the occasion like we're not going to. And yeah, it was we were really saved by the project growing. It's like it needed to grow outside of this little core of people that had been with it for so long. And it was also creatively like bringing on new voices who see who could see, because I think a lot of us even though that idea is so great, and you know, I spend the thing pitching how wills idea where I'm like, Well, you basically gave me this idea that I love so much. But I would say well, even more than then than anyone else, at some point was just sick of it. He was just like, I don't even think this idea is cool anymore. Because if you work on something, you work on something long enough, you just you don't see what it is. It's like when you if you're editing a film or something like that, you know, you just and and this magical thing happens when you bring new people in and you see them get excited for the first time where you suddenly get to go, oh, well, it is cool. And so that was that was really that's how we it kind of it rejuvenated with bringing in new voices and collaborators was really the best way out of that rut was just like, bring someone in who can see it with fresh eyes, you know?
Ben 46:09
Yeah, you keep kind of talking about and I, you said something kind of offhand early on about this idea that in order to like really write this game and really finish this game, you kind of had to live more and like experience more? Can you kind of talk about like, what what for you was that thing? Or what were the the the, you know, several things where it's like, because I think that's such a common experience, especially in like undergrad writing courses where your reach really exceeds your grasp in terms of like, what you're able to communicate and make resonate, especially for a story. That is in some ways, I think summarizing, like, what is it is what is it to be alive? So what for you are the experiences that you know, between starting this thing really early on, and the seven years, you felt like you learned that helps you kind of tell this story?
Graham Parkes 46:58
Yeah, yeah, I think that we learned that, you know, I think I learned that like, exactly what you're talking about undergrad, so I've done some teaching of screenwriting to, to, to, like high schoolers. And it's, it's, it's it, so I see it firsthand. And it's amazing to see. And then like, remembering what you know, not yet realizing that like what, you know, your own experience is the most valuable thing that you bring to, to writing. And I think that that you can you can be told that a million time, you know, times, right, which you know, and I write what you know, should never be taken literally, but on an emotional level. Right, which you know, and even if it's a metaphor, but like, you know, that's such a, it takes a long time to actually learn that. And I do think that it was like, those early versions, kind of seeing it from the outside of like, oh, so it's a story about, you know, like, mortality, and like, what are other great stories about that, and then going and studying other great works, and going and reading, you know, a Portrait of the Artist, as a young man and reading these things and being like, how do I kind of graft this onto that, I think is a lot what you do as a younger writer is you just sort of you just sort of like graphed the things you think are cool. You just try to like, just kind of copy them and do your version of them. Yeah, and I think it Yeah, it is that humbling process of realizing like yeah, you just nobodies. The reason that thing was great is because it was it was it was it was genuine and and, and you've just created a sort of lifeless, corpse replica of a great thing. And no, but And again, it's like, it's it's the process you go through. And it's like how you get good too. Because it's also what you know, it's you.
And especially with a story like this, it's a great point for you to say like I always was intimidated, I think and scared of it in a lot of ways where I was like, this is such a fucking great idea that it's like it could, like it could be done in so many ways. And like the best version of it could be the greatest thing of all time. You know what I mean? Like, I still feel that way. It's like, I still think that there's like, you could remake this a million times and get just the blink idea is just so cool. So let's get let's get give it to Terrence Malick and see what he does. You know what I mean? Like Like, there's lots of like, so there was always a thing of like, I'm gonna be the one that does this. Okay, let's let's do you know what I mean? Like, like, do I have that? And so it was me stopping like thinking, well, what's the best version of it objectively, and me going well, what's the version of it that we know how to do you know, and that that's really the shift to where you go. You have to lean into who you are, what you can say. And I think that once we got that money from Riot, I'd sort of learned that lesson in so many different ways. So it was a cool thing because we didn't really have like a team going at that point when we got that money like it was. Most people had other jobs, but I was able to kind of be the First person in, which is a rare thing in games to basically I knew we had learned so much about how to make this game how it worked on a technical level, but then I had this long period where it was basically just me writing and then all in will, us doing sort of story meetings and developing the story, I'd go off and write, I'd send them pages, we'd meet back up, we jump on phone calls, but it was like, you know, me kind of work, I was working full time, then them supporting that process. And it was just like a five month like, was like four or five month writing period, which is like something that exists, you know, in like Hollywood more, the idea that you're gonna get the script right before you go into production a lot of the times in games because now it's we now we're now experiencing what how most games have to get made, where it's sort of like, you want to retain your whole team. So it's sort of like you start firing all the, you know, you start the race all together. But what's kind of cool because of the way before I came was like, I got a lot of time, just to figure the story out, which was a real, I think, was a real blessing. And my first impulse was like, Yeah, let's let's look at let's like digitize our old, like, I, we all grew up in cinema, we all grew up, like within biking distance of each other, all right, well, and I and I knew each other's parents very well and stuff. And it's and so like, we all like digitized our home videos, and like we're watching it with screen each other's baby memories and stuff. And just talked a lot about our childhoods, and all that stuff came in, I think, for me, I started thinking about, like, when I was in, I didn't, you know, expect the game goes to some very intense places, but I had, you know, some pretty serious medical issues when I was at a similar age to care a little older to the character in the game. And I was have to, I had to, I had to have this big procedure done, I had to be called out of school for for a year. And I think I started looking at some of those memories, and some of like, the feelings, I think, that were created by Yeah, at that time in your life when you're supposed to be so future oriented. I was like, it was ninth grade for me, you know, kind of being taken out of the equation. And, and then sort of like life, you know, watching you know, other, you know, realizing, you know, just this sort of thing that sort of takes you off off your course, so that, you know, your life isn't have it, you know, especially at that age, like those milestones are so important. And the peer pressure of I'm going to be this and I'm going to be this and then I'm going to be this. And so and I was reflecting on on personal experience, you know, that experience.
And then kind of figured that twist out. And that was sort of just all sort of came at once in like a conversation with all A and we just sort of both sort of teared up. Because it was like, it was almost similar to the the idea was like, once we figured that twist of like, well actually, what if it's a lie? What if, what if this because we always wanted the story to go from birth to death, and that was always like, I was always clinging to that I was like, No, it needs to but the problem was is like, because I just think that's such a cool thing to experience in a game to go to go and be a child and then be an adult, but then everything but it was always so it got too it gets too big narratively. So then finally going well, what if the adult part is a lie? And it's actually a reflection on the on the on the on the child part and then that just instantly kind of like yeah, there you go. There's your there's, there's your story, you know what I mean? The end and I went home and I wrote like a two page little fable kind of version of it. That was like a little, just a little, like a little fable like that anyway, except that it was almost like a little kid's book version of it. Because I was I was also inspired when I was reading a lot and trying to be more inspired by like, why a kind of like books that I loved from my, from my past like, like going into bridge terribIe Thea and things like that, that kind of great, great sentimental. Why? Like I love schmaltz, and sentimental items, which smalls is and I say that I don't consider it a loss. But some people might but I love like, really, really heartfelt. That stuff is really important to me as a as a young reader. And I love to see that. You know, I love Pixar movies, I love things that are unabashedly emotional and going after those things. So I was I was reading a lot of that stuff at that time. So yeah, I kind of went home and wrote this little, this little thing. And so yeah, it really was, it really was exactly what you're talking about right there, which is like, humbling yourself and then realizing like, I'm not gonna Yeah, I have to I have to go off with what I have. I can't, I can't try to just do the best version of it in some objective sense. I got to do you know, my version of it, you know, and it takes a while to learn that as a writer.
Phil 54:35
Yeah, I'm so glad you got to the point in your answer of talking about the lie. Because one of my one of my questions was, I was really fascinated by that narrative decision and found it really affecting to kind of go through essentially like half or maybe a third of the game, thinking it's one thing and then it turns out that's a lie. And you get this whole other this whole other story that unfolds and yeah, I mean just I kind of reflecting on my experience with the game. Now it's like such a smart choice, because you essentially kind of, are able to explore like, these two lives that we've talked about over the course of this hour of like your creative life and kind of the aspirations that you might have in your artistic life and your artistic endeavors juxtaposed with these feelings of like, what is what actually is living life, you know, and like, what does it mean to like, have a fulfilling life and it's not related to, you know, exposure and kind of becoming famous or, you know, notoriety? And, you know, maybe just to jump off of that idea. I'm curious now, you know, before your eyes as obviously won a number of awards. A lot of people like it, you were talking about, like the Tick Tock kind of craze and stuff like that. And I'm wondering, like, kind of the hottest tick tock craze,
Graham Parkes 55:52
I like to I would like, I felt like we got it was like, let's, let's make this a craze. It didn't quite go to a craze. But there were many tick tops going up for the while.
Ben 56:02
Listen, the top of my tic TOCs. It was the it was the pink, it was the pink ooze and it was before your eyes.
Phil 56:10
I'm curious, like, what maybe how you feel about I mean, I don't have to call that exposure, like that kind of reaction to your work now. Because I think that, you know, for instance, a lot of a lot of creators could go their whole lives, you know, creating artist stuff, and you know, getting some reactions, but maybe not on the same scale. I'm kind of curious how you're feeling about Oh, yeah.
Graham Parkes 56:31
Interesting. Yeah, I know. It's funny, I said that in the Baptist speech, that was my little pre written joke. That was like, I was like, it's funny to collect a, an award for a game about how fancy awards are meaningless or something like that. But, and, but then I said, it feels good. Anyway, which is true. You know, it's like, yeah, I mean, it goes so far as to, like, you know, you just have to hold those things in balance, but like, you know, it was it was amazing, you know, after after this much work on something. And also doing it with people that, you know, you you really, you know, if it were just, you know, I don't know, I think it could feel very isolating, you know, a success, if it were something, you know, I don't know what that's like to be like a novelist or something, and you've just been in your bedroom, and then suddenly, you're famous. Like, that seems like amazing, but also almost terrifying, because it's so alone. But I think because, you know, I did this with, with people I really love and a team that I'm really proud of, I think that like, yeah, it's just been really, it's been really gratifying. And it's been really cool to see. Like to kind of get introduction to this industry that for me, as I was saying earlier, is sort of like, you know, it's sort of like Wonka's chocolate factory a little bit, you know, getting to go to, you know, GDC and dice and in a BAFTA us and at the Game Awards and stuff and being like, oh, there's Jeff kiwi, like, like, and like, it's funny, because it's like, for me weirdly, having like that, like, game stuff is his is the stuff that just I felt like it would never kind of touch. So you know, meeting, you know, the people at Sony and meeting people that, you know, getting to go to these awards ceremonies with like, Daniel Mullins who, you know, I don't know if you guys have played in scription. But inscription was just destroying, like Daniel Mullins was just taking home. He they had to bring, like at the dice awards, they hit the dice awards was that the gdCA? Or they had to like bring, like boxes to put his awards into, because because he could not possibly carry all of them home and he deserved them. And he's also what was amazing. It was kind of a full sort of thing. Should I tell a story from Daniel months? He spoke to us about how he had like, he spoke to us about this very thing. Like he's such he's such a show guy is like a solo. Debbie does does, you know, he won Game of the Year at dice and all this stuff. But he talked to us about this very thing where his first game was called Pony Island. And it kind of blew up and did really well. And we were like, we were kind of came to him. We were kind of like, we're really starting our next game. Like how did you kind of figure that out? And he was like, oh, you know, he had another game called the hex that was also awesome. But it actually didn't do as well as Pony Island. And, and then his third game just went, like, you know, skyrocketed. And he was just like, and he was like, my only advice. And so he was so humble. And so chill. And I was like, Oh, you're like he's probably just a great person. I don't know. Really. I met him a couple of times. So you know, I don't know. But but my in my head I was like this is this is because it's almost better to take that curve, you know, like that, that if it was just success and then success and that success, like but you're able he's able to be so so chill and calm because he because because his career doesn't take that straight line. And I think that he just said my only recommendation to you is just make the next one. Because you don't know. And so just you know, just make the next one and then the next one it might be the second one might be worth it, you might do worse. The third one might do better like but you just, you know, just committing to the process and enjoying the process. I thought that was like really great advice to hear from someone that was carting you know, awards home and they're, you know, we we won won, we won the BAFTA we went to we all look bad was the last one, we'll go to this shows. And we would, we were just Nam and we were so excited to be nominated all but this guy was just carving them off. So it was like, it was like, it was really, it was really lovely advice. And yeah, that's where, you know, I think, as a team and myself, you're just trying to keep it just like just trying to practice gratitude, you know, just know that it's, it is all luck. At the end of the day, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I think is a great, it's the luck of a great idea. And it and it coming out at the right time and it resonating and whatever. So you know, you just like it's really as cool as we get to do this again, like that's, that's really where you try to stay like, and I think that's what the game would would hopefully teach us like, don't start fantasizing about, you know, you don't start fantasizing like Benny does about, you know, being, you know, the cover of Wired magazine or whatever, like, just just make the next thing you know, right. Yeah.
Phil 1:01:12
Well, is there anything that we haven't asked you yet that you think that we should we should touch upon? I mean, if not, like this has been so good.
Graham Parkes 1:01:21
Oh, great. Yeah, this has been nice, nice therapy session for me. So no, no, nothing, nothing comes to mind. Nothing comes to mind. I'm really, I'm really glad that you guys asked me on here, this is really fun.
Phil 1:01:45
And that was our conversation with Graham parks, the writer and creative director for before your eyes. Again, so glad to be able to talk to Graham about this game. You know, as I feel like it has become a trend lately. This was another game where Ben has been pestering me to check it out. And I was slow on the uptick to get to it, but eventually found, you know, 90 minutes, two hours, however long it took to beat it in a sitting. And damn, like, honestly, probably one of my favorite narrative games I've played in years. So thanks, Ben,
Ben 1:02:20
I'm just gonna, this is like encouraging me to be more of a pest and not less of a pest. And I feel like you don't want that in your life.
Phil 1:02:29
I mean, if they're as good as this game, then Damn, I want to I want to play them all. Like, I feel as if, you know, the mechanics, the narrative, the writing, and presentation of this game, it was kind of one that you know, when you read like a really good book, or something like that, at least for us who are writers, it's like, it kind of makes you want to write or like it makes you to, you know, attempt to do to to get back to your project. That's kind of how I felt when I finished this game where I felt like so kind of inspired to want to get back into things I'm working on and to, you know, try new experimental things that, you know, clearly this blinking mechanic idea really opened up the possibilities for
Ben 1:03:13
crazy that I'm hearing you basically confirmed that you will be playing disco Elysium now,
Phil 1:03:18
you know, you, we all choose what we want to hear.
Ben 1:03:23
One of the other things that I think is worth highlighting about this conversation, and especially like, I think really resonates with me at least, and kind of resonates, I think with this idea of art, and the art that you make is that I think sometimes you can feel like if I'm not doing my writing, or I'm not like working on, you know, the projects, that there's there's a feeling for me of like, well, what am I doing and like, is what I'm doing like enough, right? That like, I want to I want my life to have some kind of meaning and some kind of value. And you know, at least for me, I've kind of decided that that's going to be through something like art or writing. And so when I don't do those things, or I'm not like finding success at those things, I sometimes feel like, you know, I'm wasting my life basically. And I think the theme or the message of this game, in some ways was something that I like, just really hit with me, which was, you know, at the end of the game, the game is basically like, your life has value and meaning and importance, no matter what stage you're at, and no matter what you kind of do or don't do with it. And I don't know that really stood out with me and I think is part of why I found this game kind of smooth moving and I guess personally impactful.
Phil 1:04:39
Yeah, I mean, I kind of left the game just feeling like you know, Graham and the other folks on the team. It just had a very wise kind of kind of message to it. I think like you know, because I want to say grandmas around are our age like early 30s at the oldest and And, you know, to kind of create an iterate on this project for I want to say he said, eight, eight years or something like that, like basically your whole kind of 20s. And to kind of come out on the other end with this kind of really just, you know, introspective message around, like, you know, the things that you create, you're more than the things that you create, right, that, you know, sometimes pursuing, you know, the next milestone before you appreciate what you have, or the life that you have around you can be such a detrimental and kind of isolating experience, which I think is like really easy to get into as somebody who's an artist on the internet these days, you know. So I think in that way, that gives us a really good reminder and a lot of senses to kind of value what you're doing now. And like, remember what else is around you outside of like, the things you're creating, in hopes of, you know, getting notoriety or whatever.
Ben 1:06:05
Yeah, I have nothing to add to that. I just agree.
Phil 1:06:08
So, I mean, I think yeah, before your eyes definitely, definitely worth your time. I feel like it's kind of been on sale a lot and like then in different bundles, and, you know, a variety of kinds of means to get it. It's available on Netflix now if you're a subscriber. And yeah, I mean, I think like, this is a game where like, if you have a friend or like you have a partner or someone who like isn't really into games like this one, I don't know about you, Ben. But this one feels like a perfect one to kind of try to sit them down and play just because it's so compelling on just on the story level.
Ben 1:06:43
Yeah. 100% it doesn't ask you really to like, get used to a lot of game mechanics, I think there's there can be a hard high barrier to entry sometimes just for like getting used to the gamey language of games. And this is to me is like, anyone can pick this up and play within, like, under a minute.
Phil 1:07:01
Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I mean, I kind of feel like a little bit at a loss of words on this one. But just to say like, before your eyes really, really great game like not, I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I think to say that, you know, this is probably one of my favorite narrative games I've played, you know, last like five years, probably like it definitely kind of lingers with you for a long time. So thanks, Ben, for the recommendation that was let's
Ben 1:07:30
go. You can look this game up at before your eyes.com or before your eyes. game.com. You can also follow Graham at goodbye underscore world underscore. That's a pretty that's pretty good handle. That's a good I like that. Sorry, go ahead.
Phil 1:07:52
He's, I mean, he's, he's a good writer. So
Ben 1:07:56
email us with thoughts concerns, questions at the origin story pod@gmail.com. Our website as always is origin story dot show. And our Twitter is at origin story underscore, Instagram, which is updated and good and beautiful all the time origin story dot show. You can follow me at sad underscore radio underscore lad. Phil, where can they find you?
Phil 1:08:20
They can find me on Twitter at 3d Cisco. And as always, thanks to Ryan Hopper for the awesome intro and outro music that you hear after every episode. And thanks to melody Hirsch, for the awesome design work on the website and the cover and everything else related to origin story. I think that wraps us up for this week. As always, you know, make sure to leave leave some feedback. Give us a review on Apple podcasts on Spotify, send us an email. We'd love to hear from you especially as we're kind of doing like these new fun little study hall episodes so we can definitely expand upon a variety of topics that maybe we can't always get an interview for on the show. And yeah, I think I think that's it Ben.
Ben 1:09:09
Yeah, leave us a review or else our podcast will disappear into the feed the for your eyes. Damn. Horrible note to end on. Let's get let's call it let's call it C.
