Jacob Geller on the Evolution of Video Essays and Games Criticism
Episode Description
Jacob Geller is a YouTube video-essayist whose work grapples with video games, history, politics, empathy, and more.
Recently his criticism has engaged with the politics of climate change and art in the pre-apocalypse as well as media preservation in the digital age.
We talked with him about video essays as an art form and what it means that they are the most popular form of criticism.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
You can learn more about Jacob Geller here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:15
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And Ben this week, we have a special guest with us kind of a different guests from what we usually have on origin story, we talk to Jacob Geller, he is a YouTube video essayist, who's in the games industry, he does a lot of kind of intertextual video essays that kind of talk about video games, as well as a number of other, you know, pieces of criticism, literature, art, etc. Yeah, this was a really interesting conversation, especially as we continue to dive into the state of criticism and the industry right now. Yeah,
Ben 1:03
I was so excited to have this conversation, I think, Phil, I kind of have realized that, like, this is something you and I have not touched on. We talked about it, I think a lot outside of the podcast, because I love a good video essay. And I do be sending video essays left and right. And so I think this is this is something that is like video games and criticism adjacent, that I feel like we don't talk a lot about. And so I was really excited to have this conversation about like, the space that video criticism of video games or of anything occupies and what it means that like, you know, as we get into the conversation, and we'll let the conversation go here in a second, what does it mean that, you know, YouTube video essays are like our primary form of like, engaging with criticism at this moment.
Phil 1:52
Yeah, 100% we get into everything related to like how the project came to be the difference in the games industry, currently with a criticism between writing and video essays. But yeah, really fascinating conversation. Let's play it out. And we'll talk a little bit more after
Ben 2:11
we'll see on the back end.
Phil 2:27
Jacob Geller as a video essayist, whose work grapples with video games, history, politics, empathy, and more. Recently, his criticism has engaged with the Politics of Climate Change and art and the pre apocalypse, as well as media preservation in the digital age. Jacob, thanks so much for coming on.
Unknown Speaker 2:45
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Phil 2:47
Yeah. You know, you just finished up a 24 hour long Twitch stream raising money for people who, for people that need help traveling for legal abortions. You know, I'm curious, like, how you're doing, what was the stream? Like? Can you just tell us the audience a little bit about it?
Jacob Geller 3:07
Yeah. So it's, like, five days after the stream, I'm doing pretty good. More or less back to normal. The stream is like a big deal to me, both because I, I care about raising money for charity. Also, I don't like streaming really, like this is this is the one stream I do a year, like, I don't, I don't normally stream playing games or anything. And so like, there's, there's a lot of prep that goes into this, you know, we have guests for basically, every hour of the stream lined up beforehand. And so it it very much feels like you know, it's like, it's something that I am always glad to have done. But going into it. I've never like can't wait. I'm always like, oh my god, I like, you know, if I streamed more, I think I'd be more confident in my ability to like, handle technical problems, but that's always my nightmare is just like something breaks. And I don't know how to fix it in the middle of the stream. And then, you know, everyone stops watching and donating. But fortunately, that never happens. And it didn't happen this time.
Phil 4:15
Yeah, it's funny, you know, Jacob, asked me to come on the stream, and I ended up not being able to make it but to your point, Jacob, when you asked me like, obviously, it felt like an honor but a part of me having never done any kind of Twitch streaming in my life. I was like, oh, fuck, that's, that's scary. So
Speaker 3 4:33
yeah, I mean, obviously, there is there is no Twitch expertise required. You know, I'm, I'm basically looking for, you know, I'm doing this for 24 hours, and I cannot talk for 24 hours straight. And so I just want people who can kind of come on and either talk about the games or you know, like, why it's important to have the free and legal abortions or whatever, and I had the feeling that You wouldn't be good at both of those even if you weren't not, you know, a pro streamer you're?
Phil 5:07
Well, well, thank you, thank you for for your confidence in me. But yeah, I know enough about me. Obviously, Jacob, you are kind of a big name and the video essay realm. You know, you have over a million YouTube subscribers. And, you know, I feel like whenever video essays come up, especially in the games, industry, you know, your name is kind of like the first one on the list. And, you know, I think Ben was actually the one who introduced me to your work. And
Ben 5:40
we, you know, we can talk about this, but I feel like your essays are, in some ways, like the gateway drug that I use, like, I engage with a lot of video essays, I watch a horrific amount. And Phil and Joe, who's a friend of ours are kind of always making fun of me, because I will watch the like, Oh, it's a seven hour breakdown of this movie from 1970 to like, I'm going to watch it. And I'm actually not going to watch the movie that it's about. I'm just going to watch the seven hour breakdown. Oh, yeah, I'm familiar. Yeah. Okay, great, great, great. But like, in some ways, I think that your videos serve as like a great like, here's, here's like what you could be getting into, and I think your returnable video, especially I'm like, that's the one that I like, send to people. And they're like, this is pretty good. Like, this made me think about things in a new way. And I felt like I came away with something. And so that's like, the, the little little spice that I throw at people. And then if they're like, I want more than we get into it. But like, I think then you get into the seventh row, right? Well, usually you're trying to build up to that. That's like, that's a couple months deep. But I think in some ways, your stuff is just like such a great example of like, what the form can do, and served a really good way to be like, hey, for us, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 6:52
That's, that's very flattering. I love to be the, you know, it's like, I am happy to be the mainstream, you know, and then and then you can, like, bring people into the various subcultures, but it's a bit I never expected when I started making them that it would be like, Oh, you like Jacob Geller? Check out other stuff. You know, I always hoped to be like, Okay, well, if you like, you know, if you like iPads, Wolf, then maybe you will also like this guy.
Ben 7:24
I think like the, you know, the question that I and I'm sorry, I feel like I kind of cut you off there. But the question we're building up to is like, what got you interested in the form,
Speaker 3 7:33
and the form of video essays specifically. There are a couple things I saw, I wrote, I wrote pieces that are very similar to the scripts for, for what I do now, prior to starting a YouTube channel, I, I had a blog on the podcast, Kanan rinse, had like a still has a website where they would host written pieces, and then I interned at Game Informer for a little while. And both of those were, were fine, and I enjoyed them. But there is like, when you are solo, there is there is kind of no ability for a blog to go viral. You know, like writing, writing doesn't work that way. And not even not even freelance. You know, it's like, if you think about the last like critical essay that you saw, like really kind of go outside the scope. It just kind of like, it doesn't feel like there's a vessel to do that. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to freelance, I didn't really want to be like, pitching things, or trying to get the contacts for people at websites, because I didn't I never envisioned it as a career. It was just like a hobby. And so, you know, for putting things on YouTube, I thought, okay, there is, there is a chance that it will get kind of seen randomly here in a way that like blogs cannot. I really, there were other video essayists already that I really admired. And we're kind of like, you know, it's just like emulating them. And then the third thing is, I, I was so obsessed with pairing my writing with music that even when I was writing blogs, I always kind of wanted to be like, Hey, why can you listen to this song, like while you're reading this, and so like even more than the video aspect, the the idea of like being able to do music accompaniment was like a big deal for me. And so video really, you know, it enabled that
Phil 9:36
that's interesting. I mean, it's similar to so you know, you had me on the something rotten podcast and you had asked me about like how I had learned about kind of games criticism and things like that. And I talked about how it kind of came later in college and I didn't really think about, you know, criticism in relation to games. I think in that in that vein It wasn't until your videos really that I started thinking about video essays as like this critical form in the games industry because like, you know, in undergrad and grad school for creative writing, like I'd heard of video essays, but much more in kind of like an avant garde creative nonfiction, experimental essay kind of thing, as opposed to kind of like these kind of make, like, mini documentaries, I guess I'd say and, in a sense, argumentative documentarian kind of stuff. And, you know, you're, you're already starting to unpack, I think some of what Ben and I were interested in, which is like, kind of the state of criticism has been a big kind of space that we've been exploring in this season of origin story, and, you know, you're already getting at this idea of like, writing doesn't, you know, have the same kind of explosive tendency that maybe, you know, gaming or video can have. I'm curious, like, how would you kind of situate the YouTube I guess, or like other video platforms currently, in creators who are doing similar criticism to you like, is that do you feel like that's where the energy is, like, on the video side of things? Or, or not?
Speaker 3 11:18
You know, it's, it's weird, because I've always felt, you know, like, my, my biggest writing inspirations, were often games, like, writers, you know, who are not not necessarily doing videos, but I have always thought of them as, as separate. You know, it's like, one of one of the plagues of games writing is the term games journalism, because it's kind of like, it is so nebulous, and people have all sorts of expectations attached to it that are, you know, completely it's like, our reviews, journalism, you know, and is that the same kind of journalism as like, an op ed, and, you know, where does actual journalism lie, you know, in terms of like, investigating things, interviewing people, you know, kind of, like the finding out history? And, and so, like, I've always, you know, I've thought of kind of, weirdly, I think there is kind of the ethical strictness, there is far more of it, in written writing, mostly, because that is usually published on like, a site that has a code of ethics, you know, that, like, if you read a piece written about a video game, it's probably written on, you know, people, people, you know, rag on IGN, or whatever. But it's like, IGN has like a code of conduct, you know, like there is, you can't, you can't literally just make things up, and have it officially published there. And even though, I, you know, a lot of my contemporaries and I on YouTube, Don't make things up. It always felt more like, you know, YouTube being so unregulated also just made it kind of a not a, not a source that you wanted to cite, you know, like it, it always felt just kind of like Wes, less official and should be taken less seriously. You know, it's weird. It's weird to say that, as someone who's, whose job it is, but it like, it did always feel like this is this is the wild west over here, where anyone can say anything. And because of that, like, if you're talking about kind of the YouTube gaming scene as a whole, I have historically felt pretty negative about it, just because like, I think there are a bunch of dumb guys on YouTube. And it's like, it's just, like, more prevalent than kind of classic games writing. And so it has been really interesting for me to, like, see myself cited and like, see other people cited? Because it is this kind of like, I think, even though all of those problems are still there, YouTube is just so prevalent, that it's kind of unavoidable. You know, it's like, everyone's kind of had to be like, okay, they still don't have a code of ethics, but like, we can't keep ignoring this this scene anymore, because it's just like, that is how most people seem to be interacting with criticism. You know, I think probably a lot more people watch a video reviews and video essays than read, you know, critical articles.
Ben 14:41
Oh, yeah. And I don't think it's close. It's like, I think that's the other thing. Is that, like, you know, you know, I hear in some ways, you're saying, you know, I have some trepidation about the fact that like, this is where people are engaging primarily with any kind of critical criticism or critical critical texts, but on the flip and I think this is like, speaks to You what you're doing, I look at that. And I'm like, This is great like this, this guy has over a million followers, like how many? How many people on the regular are engaging with, you know how to blow up a pipeline on a regular basis? Like if you can be someone who is introducing people to these kinds of texts? I'm like, that seems great to me. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 15:21
No, it's yeah, I, I totally agree. I mean, it's like, that is why I'm, you know, I am very happy that my channel has had the success that it has had, because that means that I can talk about some like, really esoteric stuff, and and people will pay attention. But it does. You know, it's like, it's funny that I started the channel, because I was like, writing can't get algorithms in the same way a video can. And that is still, you know, it's like my, my, my colleague and CO podcast host Blake Hester does like incredible investigative and journalistic writing for Game Informer, and it's published there. And it's like, he gets, you know, all respect to Blake, like, a 30th of the views that my videos do like it really, it really is a shame that like, you know, these, it seems like there's almost a one successful way to talk about things now, as opposed to, you know, like having having all of these mediums be able to interact. But yeah, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that, Ben, and I do try to be kind of like, well, if people are going to my channel, you know, I have a responsibility to kind of give them interesting things and think about them deeply before I present them to the audience.
Ben 16:38
Yeah, I mean, like, I am unapologetically like, very, very pro, I try to, you know, video, essay, pill, everyone that I that I meet, I'm wondering if you can maybe just talk about, like, how you think about, you know, as I'm watching your videos, there, it's, it can feel like, how are you selecting? You know, how do you decide, what is my next essay going to be about? Is that something that you're like moving through the world? And you're like, oh, this catches my interest? Or are there things that months in advance, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna start learning about this. And I'm gonna start preparing an essay around this idea.
Speaker 3 17:15
Basically, both of those things, you know, like, there, there is not, there's not a formula for me figuring out an essay, and kind of my, my biggest thing, anxiety is like, I'm just not going to have a next thing. You know, like, if, if I was someone who reviewed every racing game, I'd be like, well, there's another racing game. So like, I'm good, you know, this month is covered. But because I don't do that, and because like, my, my brand is kind of built on, like, you're not going to expect to the next thing that he talks about. The it's hard, you know, and so I do, I try to keep myself just very open. The, for instance, my last released essay, which is on on kind of preservation, and archiving, and whatever was like, I was in a bookstore. And just while walking out, I saw something that was on like, the history of the encyclopedia, it was like that, you know, that that book that I referenced in the video was like, the first part of that, and I started reading that. And then that made me think about, you know, my grandma saving her encyclopedias. And so then from there grew this idea of like, okay, let's, let's talk about, you know, saving other things, or throwing them away, or whatever. But like, it really was just like, that book looks interesting. I'm going to pick it up. And then luckily, that turned into an essay, but there are, you know, plenty of other books that I pick up or whatever that kind of fizzle out or just don't don't like turn out to have the web of connections that I can pull in to make an interesting video out of them.
Ben 18:57
Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I,
Phil 18:59
I recently just watched that the digital preservation like media preservation, and the digital age video that you did, and it was really striking, because it just got me thinking about I mean, outside of what you're talking about in the video, like, kind of the video essay form, and how we are going to engage with it. years from now. And you know, I think this is probably a multifaceted question, but so we'll see where this goes where my tangent goes here. But, you know, I used to have a YouTube channel way back in the day, like when I was in high school in the early 2010s. And at the time, YouTube had they stored the video reply functionality or you like, and then they could literally you could have a YouTube and, I mean, I feel like that was such a cool feature that would now be kind of untenable in terms of Like the landscape of how the platform works, but something that your, your video kind of got me thinking about. And maybe this says something more about me than like the form is, you know, when I watch video essays, and when I think about what we're talking about of how popular they are, maybe compared to written criticism. I think all that's true. But at least for me, something that is striking is I feel as if video essays are a bit more ephemeral to me, like, I feel like I watched them, and I'm thinking about them, but then it's a lot easier for me to maybe, for them to escape my mind versus like reading a text and like, I can recall a quote or, or something like that. Maybe the first part of this question is just thinking about kind of the platform that video essays exist on mainly YouTube? What is like, what is it like for you and your cohort? In terms of, you know, you make a video? Are other people in the space responding to it? Or like, how would you say, like, discourse unfolds? Critically between different, you know, creators on the platform?
Speaker 3 21:21
That's an interesting question I like, my first answer is just kind of like not much, you know, like I have been, I've, I've made an effort to cite other people, I think it's an understandable habit, but I think it's kind of grown out of review culture that a lot of people are like, I don't want to intake other things about this game, while I am producing something about it, you know, I want I want my critical thoughts to be my own. And I get that while someone's writing a review of it. But I do think that that leads to kind of a kind of writing that has like a short term memory loss, and you know, that it feels like things can't build on each other, because no one is actually referencing each other. And so like, I, I tried to do that, and I, but I also don't reference video essays that much, because it just feels more official to me to reference a book or like an academic paper or something. And so it's, you know, it's challenging to do. And I think the other, you know, for good and for bad making a video, especially if, if you were kind of a video essayist, is like, it takes so long, that the kind of responses don't really exist that much, you know, or it's like, it's like, you're responding to something that by the time your video comes out, could be like, three months old, you know, and in a way that that's, you know, I think that generally makes responses more thoughtful when they happen, you know, I don't think at least my part of YouTube is not, not kind of catty in the way that like Twitter can be, or whatever. But it is, it is kind of a shame that I think everyone, everyone views themselves as kind of writing their own body of work, without a lot of input from other people. And I think that's, that is unfortunately, true of almost all games, writing outside of like, true academia is like, people don't, people don't cite each other's writing that much. In games, because it's, you know, it is caught in that, like, we're just writing about entertainment, we're not like creating, we're not creating a lineage and so then people forget that other people have written things. And I also think, with, with video essays, they are so much harder to search, you know, like, that's something that I think really is maybe under discussed is like, you know, I, I give my videos, kind of catchy titles for people to click on them. But like, if, if you're looking, it's really hard to remember like, what's the what's the video where Jacob talked about, you know, like, Boomerang D generation, like that's not in the title. And if you search Jacob Geller, Boomerang generation, the art in the pre Apocalypse one might come up, but you might not know that it's because it's there. And so like, it is harder to have that discourse because it just requires you watching and remembering all of these videos because there isn't an archive of them, and certainly not one that you can like meaningfully search.
Ben 24:51
Yeah, I had this experience recently that Sophie from Mars has this really great video essay about how control creates You know, its atmosphere through architecture, super great essay. And I had a buddy who finished control and I was like, oh, I want to send you this, this essay. And I was like searching for it and searching for it searching for it. It was like trying to remember the keywords and, you know, ultimately was able to track it down. But it's like, it can be a harder experience. When we had Austin Walker on I think he said something that was similar to what you're saying here, where he was kind of nostalgic for the almost call and response of criticism, where, you know, he was like, someone who would write something, someone would be reading that and then directly call it out in the post that would come out, you know, maybe a week later, right? And so it's like, the discourse is building. And I was thinking about how, you know, I really liked your kind of climate change video, I really liked Sophie from Mars Climate Change video, they were also very similar to I think Philosophy Tube had a great climate change video. Yeah. But it's like, I think exactly what you're saying where it's like, it's taking so long maybe to create these things. And maybe they're being even created in tandem, that by the time they come out, the discourse isn't like building, it becomes like this, like, one person is saying this thing about this. And these things resonate similarly. But they're not like, directly in conversation in a way that like, a series of essays might be.
Speaker 3 26:15
Yes, I mean, and that's a it's a great example, because like, when I saw I saw Sophie, not even post the video, but like, a preview of her video, or I think maybe I saw her say like, this is available on Patreon now, and just the title. And I was like, I was like, 95% done with art in the pre apocalypse. And because I tend to work like pretty ahead. And so I messaged her man, like, oh my god, can you can you send me your video that you know, this is kind of because you're also it's like, You're terrified of, of doing this, and then someone else makes the same thing and kind of scoops you even though like, what the scoop is talking about how we're all despairing because the world feels like it's ending. You know, and so I, I have a line referencing Sophie's video in in mind, but like, that was a late addition, you know, like, and it was, it is, it was that thing where it's like, these come out, came out probably like 20 days apart or whatever. But like, my, my script was, was done and it was locked. And it's hard to change a video when it's hard to you know, like, re edit things. And so, yeah, it is. It's, it's scary when things come out close together. You know, and I think, I think I both totally agree with Austin's point. And I also think that if we were there, now we'd be like, God, this sucks. Like, I just want to write something and not have like, 12 people write a takedown, or whatever. I actually I had in, in my my games that aren't games video, I had a section that was basically we're counting that those about the game mountain. And it was all of these writers responding to each other were like someone wrote, like mountains, not a text, and then someone else was like, Yeah, everything's a fucking text, you know? And it was like, it was funny, going through that whole sequence and just thinking like, Yeah, we don't, I couldn't really do this for a game released in, you know, 2022 like that. These these kinds of call and responses don't happen.
Phil 28:27
That's interesting. I mean, speaking about Discord is something that I found interesting kind of going through your catalogue and preparation for talking is like the comment sections are like very How would I put it like the commenters they put like a lot of care into their responses and are actively kind of engaging in the comments. It's not most of the most of the time, it's not just like a one sentence. It's like, you'll have a whole paragraph response from somebody talking about how you know this essay brought up this idea and etc, etc. And, you know, I compare that to you know, recently I published a piece on Final Fantasy 16 and slavery and how you know, the game kind of kind of fumbles fumbles the bag on it and you know, most of the stuff that I write, you know, a couple people read it, but you know, I don't if they do, I don't, I don't hear about it. But you know, a lot of people read that piece and that's like one of the first order I've had to deal with a little bit of like, people on the internet responding to work and yeah, I don't know that I feel like how the games industry is set up you know, people who you know, I guess fans whatever we want to call them people who are engaging with the with the work, the discourse, it's really not conducive to like I think what typically create Kol discourses about right and I'm wondering, since your since your videos get so much exposure, like what is your relationship to them after they release? Like what is? Do you just kind of release it? And it's it's gone from your mind? Are you kind of in the comments, you know, continuing the conversation in some way?
Speaker 3 30:22
Yeah, I mean, so it is it is worth pointing out that like a comments near the top are like highly rated or thumbs up or whatever. So it's like, I do get plenty of dumb responses, they just tend to, you know, if you sort by newest, you'll see you'll see more stuff. But I will say my comments sections are generally very good. And I do I continue to read pretty much all of my YouTube will show you all your new comments in a row. I don't read the replies, you know, both because that would get unmanageable. And there's just like, not an easy way to do that. I think yeah, I think that people tend to kind of, they give me the benefit of the doubt in a way that people did not, for instance, give give your, your Final Fantasy 16 piece. And one of the reasons is, is I'm a, you know, I'm a sis white guy. And so that that buys me a lot of a lot of cred. But also, I think, an interesting thing in the video essay sphere, that again, you don't really have in traditional writing is like, people don't pay attention to who they are reading. In written work, you know, like, you can see, when people write about, they're like, ah, Kotaku always publishes bullshit, you know, and they don't, they don't even bring up the author, because the author is secondary to the outlet. And essentially, any outlet publishes something that they don't like, it's a chance to write it off forever. You know, IGN gave this good game of bad review. So now I will never take something seriously that IGN has written, even if it's a completely different author, who was not even writing about games at the time that the bad review came out, you know. And so, like, I think that people are so willing to engage with my work because of the, the parasocial nature of, of what I do that they are not following, Kotaku, and then an article by Jacob Geller pops up, they are following Jacob Geller, and they've seen enough from me that, that even if it's something that they wouldn't have taken seriously, otherwise, I think they're willing to kind of extend like, you know, like, Okay, I will see where he's going with this. And as, as my channel has gotten bigger, I feel like I've been able to get more experimental because people like, you know, I know that people will go on that walk with me. And it it is, you know, like, I think that having whenever, you know, whenever people ask, like, how do I know what game review is good. You know, like, how do I know which one will actually tell me that I will like it. The advice is always like, find a writer who has the same tastes as you and follow them and see what they say. But that's a, you know, I think people just kind of don't do that with written work. And they also don't treat, they just think of themselves as yelling at outlets that they don't like, and I think that is less true on YouTube, because I am so present in all the videos, you know, it's my voice, it's my face. And people know that like when they hit subscribe. They're subscribing to me and not to a collection of people that I am a part of.
Ben 34:01
Yeah. Personal parasocial relationships sometimes good.
Speaker 3 34:07
Yeah, I genuinely Yes. You know, I think we all kind of learned that term. And it it has. It has it has that toxic combination, you know, because because obviously, we can all name like a million ways in which they go bad. But like, you know, I, it's, it's not even like a thing that you can really like, be like, be aware and cut out the parasocial relationship. You know, it's like I listened to tons of podcasts where I feel like I know with the hosts, and they don't know me, and like it's, it's fine. That's part of what you know, interacting with, with this sort of work is I just don't send weird things to their, you know, house. And that's because I know how to have a healthy parasocial relationship.
Ben 34:54
I am not on their lawn tonight. So that's good. Yeah. I almost want to To talk a little bit about, you know, I think we're doing this thing where we're kind of comparing, you know, here's, here's written criticism, here's what this looks like, here's video essays. Here's what this looks like. One of the things that so clearly sets video essays apart are, you know, the sound, as you were kind of talking about and the visuals? How are you thinking about crafting those things when you're going into writing an essay? And, you know, if you're writing to an idea or reading around a point, at what point are you like, Well, time to go find some footage baby.
Speaker 3 35:32
It really, it really differs per essay, you know, sometimes the, the most straightforward version is, I know, I'm going to talk about the resume before remake. So the first time I played that I just recorded my whole playthrough. You know, it's like, that's, that's the the easiest version. That's not usually what I do, because I don't typically when I'm playing a game, I don't know that I'm going to talk about it, you know, it like it has to kind of like simmer there for a while. And so, with, you know, with with games and other stuff that can be captured, I usually get like, you know, the bullet pointed version of the script, or like the general outline and think I'm going to talk about this scene, you know, here we go. I'm talking about a trace climbing the wall and God of War. So I'm just gonna go capture that part of the game. What's what's more challenging is, as, as I have increasingly talked about things that aren't games, the challenge of doing visuals can really vary, you know, like movies are pretty easy. There's, there's a little more challenge, because games do not get flagged by YouTube's copyright system in the same way that movies do. And so you have to slice up V's more than you slice up games. But something like, like I talked about mouse in the last video, and it's like you, there is there is the question of, am I showing what I'm talking about? Which is kind of step one. But step two is like is, is it visually engaging, does it actually add to my point, because something like mouse has, like, if I just like put up a, you know, a page of that on screen, it's so kind of visually dense that it wouldn't actually mean anything, to just be able to look at it. And so I did, I did a lot of like, cutting out of, of that I kind of tried to grab individual cells, I still think it's pretty hard to read, and I just kind of asking people to, like, trust me when I put it up. But the flip side of that, is, when I'm writing a script, I know that I can actually be less descriptive than I would be if it was just written. Because I can put the video up, you know, like, sometimes I will, I will think like, Okay, I don't actually have to describe every piece of this scene, because I can just throw it up there, and like, people will be able to see what I'm talking about. And so like, you know, in a lot of ways, I think, I think comprehension is aided by having the visual aid, but like, because my videos are rarely just me talking, the more the more kind of abstract of the subject, the harder it becomes to figure out like what that imagery is going to be.
Ben 38:32
Yeah, I, you know, there's, there's also a thing for me, that I that I think has happened with video essays. You know, Phil and I, for a long time, I think we're people who are just attracted to criticism at baseline, like, you know, would would read the essays about the TV show or about the movie and exchange those back and forth without ever going to watch the movie are ever going to watch the TV show, because we were just like, oh, like, we're interested in what this person is saying. And I think like, with with written criticism, I still think it's true, that, you know, the best examples of it are so good, that they they become art unto themselves. And I think in some ways, again, when I when I say this to people who I've since, you know, video essay, pilled that's, for some reason, an easier argument to make, I think because people are like, seeing the music and the sound design, they're seeing the visual elements. And I think it's easier for people to start to see that like, Wait, this criticism is not just like, responding to a piece of art or responding to an idea. It's actually in some ways, like a construction unto itself. And I don't know, can you maybe just like talk about like, how you engage with your own essays and what you're creating and how you're thinking about that?
Speaker 3 39:49
Yeah, it's, it's something that I think about a ton because it's, you know, like, the the base video essay is I I'm talking about a game or a movie. And when I say a thing, that thing appears on screen, you know, and, and there are, there are versions of those essays that I really like, you know, I think that's essentially how know what your vai edits his videos, but it's like, when you come to one of his videos, you're coming for the writing, like the writing is the attraction. And I'm not really interested in seeing how his visual editing is going to, like, intersect with his writing, I know that it's just like, it's, it's just because it's a video, there has to be a video there. But I do think that like you have, you have the ability to kind of work on multiple levels at once with with a video in a way that I you know, it's like it is it is always my favorite thing when I can actually do it. And so like, you know, the easiest example is like, I I'm talking about a game, but I talked about something else previously, and I want people to see that these things are paralleling each other. And so I can just put the previous thing, I can intercut them, you know, I can I can be showing both of them at once. And so even though I don't have to say, see, this is like that, you know, I can kind of have the video doing it at the same time. I also I think a lot about, about tone, you know, in, in my essays and how it, how it changes throughout a video, you know, and I have several that are that have like fairly angry sections or sections that I want to feel more intense. And, obviously, you know, you can do that with music, you can pick music, that that changes, but like, you know, the the speed of your edits, the kind of like, you know, I often I think about like, you know, a fade in, I feel like I'm like I'm like cradling the viewer. And I'm like, Oh we're we're flowing from this to that. And sometimes I want the viewer to feel like punched by editing like I want I want the video to feel like it is like slapping them in the face and be like pay attention. And that's like a very different style of editing. And like, you can definitely do that in writing. But it's you have to be a way better writer to achieve that than like how good I am at video editing to be able to achieve the same, you know, level of thing like that's it, I love the ability of video to kind of like, even if my words are, I'm always just reading paragraphs that I've written down, you know, the video can communicate the changing energy in the script in a way that I find really hard to lose when I go back to traditional writing.
Ben 42:59
Yeah, and I you know, we this, in some ways, dovetails with what we kicked us off with where you were kind of talking about, like the the amount of viewership. But I also I think that there is a, there's something about a visual language that I think more people are also just first in at baseline that I think like because we have a generation of people who know how to cut together a tick tock have some degree of like, familiar familiarity with, like the language of video. And so I think that like, I don't know, where sometimes I think like when we're doing written critical essays, it's sometimes feels like it's academics talking between or pseudo, you know, close to academics, someone who's at least touched a grad school textbook, talking to another person in that field, I think video essays in some ways feel to me, like we're getting, we're getting that, you know, sometimes the same level of, you know, intellectual thought, but it's, it's made in such a way that like, an average person can come in and be like, I can engage with this. This speaks in a language that like I'm able to, like, make sense of,
Speaker 3 44:03
yeah, you know, it's like to, to recognize elegant writing, especially elegant nonfiction writing, actually requires like, a pretty good, you know, like level of, of literacy, you know, like, because it's sometimes if you're, if you're not someone who reads a lot, you can read something that is like beautifully written, and maybe even enjoy it, but like, you know, unless unless you're reading all the time, it's like, it's hard to recognize what the writer is even doing to make it feel elegant. And I do think that people probably just because people watch more stuff than they read. It's like they are they're kind of willing to engage on that deeper level with video and I also think video gives people like more opportunities to hook in, you know, because it's like I still am writing and they can still connect To the writing, but they can also connect to like, my use of music in the section or, you know, like, what, what clips I'm showing, or my choice of cuts and like, all of those ideally, are pointing in the same direction. And so even if they're not connecting with all of them, if they can grab on to one, then I am like pulling them that way. And yeah, so I think it's like, you know, they're just, they're, I'm giving people more chances to, like, lock into the feeling that I want them to be feeling.
Phil 45:33
Yeah, you know, I think something that you're talking, talking about, makes me think about my own writing and something that I bitched at Ben about literally, with any piece that I publish, because like Ben basically reads anything before it comes out, and it gives me feedback on it. And something I always complain to Ben about when I'm writing about games, specifically is like, there's just like a level of writing about games, where if you don't have the visuals, you just have to describe, like, here's what the game is. And here's like, what you're seeing, and like, I fucking hate that part. Because for one, it takes up so much space that you would want to use to actually write about things you want to talk about. And it just kind of, it doesn't feel interesting, you know, writing about games, kind of having to summarize your kind of what your what you're playing what you're seeing, as opposed to like in a video essay, what it affords you to like just juxtapose against your script. That's something that I really appreciate that you're talking about with the video essay form. And something that has stuck with me, again, watching that media preservation video you just did is you know, I guess I just call it like the the Jacob Geller project, whatever you want to call your your YouTube. You know, I definitely have seen especially going through your catalogue ahead of this, this evolution in terms of the work you're putting out being a lot more experimental, not always situated in games, as like the thrust. I'm kind of curious, like, how you how you see the project and like, where you see it going? I guess, because I think something I left that digital preservation video thinking about is like, Okay, you're getting this big catalogue of really great essays. If you were if it was like a traditional writing scenario, you've probably like, turned them into a book, like a collection of essays about games or something. I'm curious, like, what that looks like for you, or like what you're thinking about going forward? Or is this like, exactly what you want it to be? Currently?
Speaker 3 47:47
It's an interesting question. I mean, I'll say, Don't count out a book of essays, you know, that that might happen at some point. It's a, you know, I think the something that I was surprised by, I'm going to kind of, I'm going to go back and then we'll go forward. But like, Ben, you mentioned the the returnable video, and I've always been a little surprised that that one or when it first came out, I was a little surprised that that one connected with people as much as it did, because, you know, in, in my mind, that was like, I'm basically just saying, what playing the game is, like, you know, and then and then it's like, okay, there's a short story in here. But basically, it's just a description of like, here's the plot of fraternal, but I think the success of that video is that like, it is it is not just describing the plot of return on it is kind of giving the emotional experience of returnable to people who have not played it, and especially that game, which is which is like, it's difficult, it makes it pretty inaccessible. Like, that's, people really connect with that. It's like, I feel like I've played this game without having to spend dozens of hours of my life, you know, getting good enough at returnable. And so I do think that it's like, there is this interesting aspect of preservation in the video essay where it's not you're not just preserving the essay itself, but like, you know, this, this might be in you know, in 20, Gears returnable might not be playable on modern consoles anymore, but hopefully, this mp4 file wherever it's hosted will be and so you can you can watch it. I mean, I in in talking to Kelsey Lewin who I interviewed for the Game Preservation part of my last video she said like, Let's Plays are often more valuable than then the thing or like if you think about her example was like, if you think about every different gameplay update to apex legends, you know, like if you gave me in 30 years Is every different version, that would mean almost nothing to me, like, it would be so hard to understand the thing, but if you have YouTube channels talking about what an update means, why it changed, you know, or like World of Warcraft, even if you have the version of the game from 2004, you're not going to be able to get the experience of 2004 World of Warcraft, the way you might, if you watch the fucking Leroy Jenkins video, you know, like that, that actually preserves a moment in time and World of Warcraft, better than other things can and so, you know, I do think that like, the Wii project is not just not just like, telling people how I feel about games, but kind of these, like, you know, capturing an amber like this moment in time, where it was, like, here is how I am I thinking about this game, if not, you know, gaming as a whole, but like, this is, this is what I am thinking about in regards to it. And, and yeah, so it's like, I want to I like doing stuff that is not just about games, I am going to continue to do more of that. But like, there is this, you know, the feeling of like, how we feel about media, at this exact moment, I think is, is like really important and as as tempted as I am to like, you know, go back and like George Lucas, my old essays and be like, Oh, I should have put this point here, or like, now this other thing came out that that makes it you know, even more relevant. It's like, you know, I want to preserve my own thoughts at that time, as well. Because I think that like that is, if we're thinking about kind of gaining criticism as a whole. There is an arc to these things. And I would love if in 10 years, you could look at my videos and kind of see the various pieces of that arc.
Ben 52:02
I'm obsessed with that answer that was so good. God bless. I you know, thank you. I nailed they did so good. You know, because I was just thinking about, again, it looks like you you played season, a game that I really adored. I really loved Penton, I don't know if you've touched sentiment yet. But not yet. But that's great. And both games, I think, in some ways are interested in exactly what you're talking about, which is like how do we preserve moments in time? And can we preserve moments in time? What is our what is our ability to kind of freeze stuff and like really try to understand how things were at the very moment that we're kind of living in or living through. And so I love that you're like, that's, that's what I'm about to do, baby, I'm here to kind of, like, try to capture the way that we're feeling about these things, or maybe just the way that I'm feeling about these things.
Speaker 3 52:55
Right? Because it's, it's like I gave I gave a very grand answer. But like, really, when I make things, it's usually it's like, I feel like writing things is is kind of just like an exorcism of thoughts from my head. It's like if I if I write 4000 words about wanted dead, I won't have to think about it anymore. Because like, before I do, it's just like a locked in.
Phil 53:22
You know, I mean, this because we were almost we're almost at an hour. You know, some other things I noticed. On the more fun side of questions, like watching your videos. And, you know, a majority of them, I would say, I was waiting for the reference to an Ueda game. And I'm curious, you know, out of the three, you know, wishes today, at least, which is the one that is your favorite, and why
Speaker 3 53:54
it is. I mean, so first I'll say, anytime there is not any way to reference in a video is because I have consciously stopped doing so you know, it's like, there are way more videos that I've made that like, could totally have like a part on Ico that I've been like, Okay, we need to slow down with this. The thing with him is like, I don't even have I don't even have like a top two. You know, like, it's like ego Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian are, they are all like locked at the top for me. And so like, today, I would say The Last Guardian, you know, but like, I it really if I go back and play eco I would probably be like, No, this is this is the one you know, it's like, it's easy he is he is kind of really singular in that element of like, only made three games. All three of those games. Maybe the best game game ever paid, just like it is. So it is it is a truly wild body of work.
Phil 55:08
Your videos have been making me want to because the only one I haven't played as The Last Guardian and you especially leading up to this seeing it come up time and time again. It's like damn, I really need to just download that. I think it's like free on Playstation and like one of those tears. Yeah. So
Ben 55:27
is there something that we haven't asked you about video games, criticism, video essays that you that you want to touch on?
Speaker 3 55:38
Um, I mean, something interesting that I think in terms of like, the video essay format is like, when I started, I felt like, oh, well, everyone's making video essays. You know, like, I'm gonna do this for me, but like, I don't think, I don't know if there's room for like another person. You know, like, it seems. So it seems like everyone's probably like video essay doubt. And it's just, it's wild to think about that. And then the, like, the growth in the past, you know, five years that I've had my channel or whatever. Where I think about like, when I started Ian Danskin innuendo Studios was like, my biggest like, my, my guy. His video, like we don't talk about Kenny was is like, I think, I think a lot of video essayists at least, you know, my, my age or older will point that that essay. And then like, you know, super bunny hop was a big one who's not really producing any more there there are people who were doing stuff who were still around, you know, H bomber guy was definitely around when when I was making stuff and like Aaron signal has been doing stuff for forever. I mean, his his channel is like 12 years old, which is an eternity on on like a YouTube video essay stuff like, and so it is really, it's been very flattering, but also very weird to like, see new video essays to either say, or I can kind of tell like, are inspired by my style, because it's like, I you know, I felt like I was like getting in at the tail end of disco or whatever, you know, it's like, oh, well, they they kind of figured out the format and this will fizzle out. And instead, it's just kind of exploded in all sorts of directions.
Phil 57:39
Cool. Well, I mean, I feel like you know, we really asked you a lot. There's a lot to think unpack, especially with kind of the state of criticism. It's really interesting because you're the first person we've talked to who's on like, the video essay side of things. And it's it's really kind of interesting to think where where things are going. I mean, again, like that your latest video about media preservation Video Game Preservation, has really left me a lot to think about. So you know, Jacob, I think it's this I'm glad you're able to come on. I hope you had fun. And hopefully you can come on again.
Ben 58:21
I'm ready for this. No seven hour cut once the seven hours. Yeah. I want to be able to put Jake and Jacob on in the morning and then be finishing in the afternoon.
Speaker 3 58:31
Can I interest you in the sword stream a 24 hour video games and guests. Now it was it was my pleasure. Thank you so much for for having me on. I think y'all have a wonderful and really interesting podcast and I so I like I'm honored to be among the the other people that you've talked with, because I like I respect almost all of those people so much.
Ben 58:57
Yeah, thank you. Really appreciate you.
Phil 59:21
And that was our conversation with Jacob Geller about his project on YouTube, video essays, video games and as it continues to unfold outward, much more. Really cool to talk to him about the project.
Ben 59:37
Yeah, you know, I feel like right off the bat, you know, Phil, it's maybe we're saying you and I, when we were having conversations ahead of talking to Jacob came in with, I think a little bit of a critical eye where we're like, let's like we almost want to have a conversation about video essays about like, like is are there is there a bad side or is there something that like we feel skeptical about like this is the world where a lot of people are engaging with criticism. I'm obviously, you know, I think a lot more pro, but like you and I, you know, what little criticism I've done and most of the criticism you do is written is something that is going to appear in a magazine, it's going to show up on a website. And so I think that we are absolutely kind of partial to that form. But I think like, one of the things that was great, and we can get into this is that I think like Jacob is kind of hyper aware of the space that he occupies, and also has some of the same questions about like, what is it? What does it mean? And, you know, there are benefits to that there are, you know, I think, this huge viewership that, you know, you and I are not getting on our little essays, that is, like, really positive. But then there are some other things where it's like, this is different, fundamentally from written criticism, and is something lost.
Phil 1:00:50
Yeah, I mean, it was interesting, because, you know, you've, you've sent me probably a number of his videos in the past, most most of the time at the time didn't watch because it's like, you see, you get sent 40 minute video, YouTube video, you're like, I also
Ben 1:01:07
do resetting you that three hour ones. I mean, you're always nice about it. But I'm like, he's not going to watch that.
Phil 1:01:13
But it's funny, because I'm sure you've probably sent me. But then also, my friend Eric also had sent me the returnable video essay back when it came out. And I didn't have time to watch it then. But, you know, obviously, I watched a bunch of head of this interview. And, yeah, it's, I feel like he's doing a really interesting, super intertextual interdisciplinary approach to the field that I, I wasn't anticipating because like, I used to watch video essays back in like the early 2010s, let's say on YouTube, and it feels like, since then, the forum has kind of evolved to be so much more intertextual in a way that's a lot more fascinating. So it's interesting to kind of hear about his process and how he's kind of continuing to expand the project, to not just be like about video games.
Ben 1:02:12
Yeah, you know, I think the other thing and I'm just like, super interested in is like, in a way that I think, like criticism in written form, is it's harder to do and also I just don't see it as much. There's, there's so much more like theater and performance. In video essays. I think a lot of the times and you know, Jacob is doing a lot of the the performance side with the choices about clips and the way he's doing editing and the way he's doing cuts. There's some humor, there's some gamesmanship in that. But I think if you like watch a lot of YouTube video essays, I'm thinking like a Philosophy Tube, or a Sofia from from Mars or even a contra points. There's a lot of like costuming, there's a lot of like, people will dress up and do quick skits over the course of their video essay. And so it feels like it is. And we kind of got into this conversation. But it's like, it's almost become this art form unto itself, where it's like, it's not only commentating on a piece of media, or a piece of art, it's also like, you know, an art form in and of itself in a way that I think is like really engaging, and really interesting and feels like it's really cool that it's like, we're bringing in music, and we're bringing in video, and we're bringing in writing, but we're also bringing in performance, and we're bringing in, you know, acting to criticism, like I just think it's cool that all these things are getting mashed together in this area.
Phil 1:03:36
Yeah, I mean, something that we get into in the conversation and just hearing you talk just now makes me think a little bit about like, you know, to me, as somebody who's never made a video essay, but as watched them, it seems like a key tension, potentially is like, Sure, you're creating criticism, but you're also creating entertainment, you know, like, there's kind of like an inherent has to be fun to watch. Otherwise, you're not going to watch a 40 minute, or if you're Tim Rogers a six hour video, right? And that's something that I'm really interested to see. As the forum continues to change how that friction plays out, because it's something I think I was trying to say to Jacob during the conversation is, you know, he has this great his latest essay is like all about Video Game Preservation, media preservation, and kind of like what we do with all these things on the internet. And that's all interesting. But then the other component of that is like when we think about criticism traditionally. And I think you brought this up during the conversation. It's kind of like, typically you'd have like an essay. That's an An academic journal or something. And then you know, as the conversation unfolds, you get this clear kind of table of contents of where you're referencing from, who you're who you're in conversation with. And you're kind of like drawing upon those different sources. And those sources are responding. Whereas, as Jacob says, in the conversation, it's like video takes so long. I mean, it's kind of like almost like game development, it takes so long to make one of these videos, that the conversation doesn't really unfold in a kind of discourse. It's more of like a horizontal extrapolation from multiple people at the same at the same time. And I'm curious this like, yeah, it just feels kind of ephemeral to me, like, what's going to happen to these videos, like, sure they'll exist, but you know, what? I'm curious. I guess it's like in the future, how we're going to engage with these as texts that inform other aspects of how we understand media and art. And I think that's true. Also, with writing like this, the content of education, I guess, the internet age, makes it really challenging.
Ben 1:06:11
And some of this is like not a new conversation, even even for videos like I'm thinking about, you know, I have had to get pretty judicious about downloading the short stories or essays that I get published, because this thing has already started to happen. And I don't know if it sort of happened to you were, I published in some obscure ass mag, and a lot of them went away during COVID. And then I've like gone back to try to find those pieces, and they're gone. They just don't exist on the online anymore. And so I think there's some of that, that is like, maybe not unique to the, to the form. But then I think there is this other thing, that Jacob I think also spoke to pretty directly, which is like, I feel weird about citing another YouTube video, I feel weird about my work cited, including, you know, and I don't, I don't know, like, is some of that just a conversation about like, we need to change the way that we feel about media, like YouTube videos that, yes, there's this entertainment value, but like, it's okay to like, think of them as, you know, valuable texts. I didn't, you know, I think like they occupy this space. And we kind of get into that in the in the conversation where it's like, it is I remember all the like consternation people heard about, like, citing Wikipedia, right? When we were in grade school, right, where it's like, this is not a, this is not the best source, you should get other primer. And I think that that's still true, but I think like, if this is where people are engaging with stuff, that's a good place to be right. And, you know, maybe it's not going to get elevated to the point where these regularly start showing up in academic journals, you know, citing YouTube videos, but I think like if this can be a place where a lot of people are introduced to texts, without having to go to grad school, and maybe it's not the, you know, the the best or most accurate understanding of what those texts are saying, but like, if this can be an onramp, in a lot of ways, I'm like, I'm 100% Pro. Right. And I don't think that we should be to gatekeepers about, you know, this as a as a as a medium. But I don't know, I also do I do hear some of the fears about like, well, well, what does that mean? If you have someone like, you know, Jacob, who's in the space doing the work, there's also so many other people who are like, you know, citing things or saying things that might not be as true and they're not vetted. Right, like Jacob is vetted, because he's vetting himself. And I think like, it is, it is fair to also say that, you know, I think there were plenty of other people operating in this space, who are just like making entertainment. And there's not the same kind of rigor as he's kind of saying that you would see in a in a published news space or article or whatever.
Phil 1:08:54
Yeah, I'm glad you brought, you brought up the point of like, because, you know, stuff we've had published and then like, it disappears, because that's something I was thinking about, too, because, yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure there's actually one journal in particular that both you and I have been published in that. Who knows, I don't know what happened to it, I can't I don't have access to it anymore. And then there's been a couple other things that I've published where the analysis gone. So it's kind of If anything, this is a completely random tangent, but it kind of brings up the whole idea of like, you know, when you're submitting to literary journals, or wherever you tell them like oh, I've had work in yada yada yada it's like, in a couple of years it's gonna be like you could just say you at work and or whatever because you're not going to have a good day and there's no way to access it.
Ben 1:09:42
There's no paper trail baby yeah.
Phil 1:09:45
But no, I think like, all of this to I want to couch and like Jacob is definitely an exception. Exceptional figure in the space like he's doing so much. extra work he doesn't need to do. Like I mentioned on the show he he added me on his podcast, something rot in, which explores kind of rotten games, and they have a bunch of critics on who've done critical work on the project and kind of walk through those, those, those pieces as they go through the game. You know, he's like, somebody who's really doing the work of highlighting other critics, especially like smaller critics, because I mean, he has a humongous platform. And in that sense, it's really cool. And but in the same token, yeah, I've just kind of like, if anything, I think that his latest essay, which really just shows just like how good it is, and this conversation, also analogues so well, with our previous episode with Christine Lai, and what her novel is kind of trying to work through with, like, what do we do with art in the wake of Apocalypse, and not to get so? Dire or like, dramatic, but like, what do we do like right now in this moment where like, you make things they kind of exist for a very fleeting moment, and then they're kind of gone? Like, do you rehearse them somewhere and then have to go through this whole phase of like, RE marketing your work. It's this kind of like, we're in this weird space where I'm curious, compared to the the work of old if we want to call that like the academic journal type shit, where it's clear to see the paper trail and define those things in libraries. The same isn't going to be the case with like, the random ass essays, I publish, on exploits on the internet, or like, if YouTube were to ever go away, and all this work that's there. It's a pretty fascinating kind of moment. And I think, similar to Jacob says in the conversation, how his work is kind of just like what he's thinking about now. Like, it's kind of a funny thing. It's like this blip of like, here's the cultural moment we're in, here's how I'm thinking about it. I think that it's doing such a tremendous job in terms of like unpacking these ideas. And as we're doing now, extrapolating outward, like what they mean for us?
Ben 1:12:23
Yeah, I think that was the part of the conversation that I was just like, I'm deeply obsessed with this, because I think like, in some ways, he's interested in freezing and Amber, these moments and his reactions to them. And I think like, it's really interesting, especially in video games, to think about how, how often we're remastering and remaking these old games. So it's like, you'll never truly engage with the thing as it was first made, right, the first thing that the first version that existed, and there are going to be so many different files for so many different platforms. Like there's no true like, early version of the media that that people want to engage with. And, you know, to some extent, I think you can say that that's true of like, really old texts. But I think we have our preferred versions of so many texts that have happened recently, right? That it's like, you look at a, you know, a novel, and you're like, well, that's been published the same way, the words are pretty much the same and have been the same for 100 plus years. And that's, you know, I think video games is a space where it's like, you're going to be engaging with a different form of it five years later. And like, that's a strange spot to be in when you're like thinking about what it means to try to preserve this moment, and try to preserve this as an as an art form, if that art form is constantly fluidly shifting and changing, which, again, I think you're right is exactly in conversation with some of the Christine Lai stuff, where it's like, what does it mean to engage with art? And what does it mean that we're making art that so rapidly is kind of changing underneath our feet. And so I think it was really cool to hear Jacobs say, like, even if it's even, you know, obviously, my work is resonating. But even if my work wasn't resonating, it's cool and interesting to try to capture these moments and capture the way that I'm feeling about this thing. And the thing that it makes me think, at this period in time, because so much of it feels so fluid and kind of ephemeral.
Phil 1:14:18
Yeah. 100% I mean, I feel I feel like I could just go on and on about I guess that that one essay, his latest essay just really sticks with me. But yeah, without without belaboring the point, I think that Jacob is, is doing really interesting work in the space. I really love how, you know, intertextual it is i There's so many videos that I watched where some of those sources he had as like, oh shit, I want to check that out. I haven't heard of that. And in that sense, that's like such a tremendous thing, a gift that you can give to a viewer or a reader. And in that sense, it was really, really cool to talk to him about the project and to kind of hear a little bit about where it's where it's going. And you know, why, why it matters to him now. So yeah, really fun conversation. Ben, I don't know if you had other things that Jacob you wanted to talk about.
Ben 1:15:15
I have nothing I just want to say video essays. Good question mark. And then Phil, watch the finish this seven hour video essay that I sent you.
Phil 1:15:23
I think I'm four hours in. So we're getting we're getting there. We're getting you have
Ben 1:15:27
one Lord of the Rings to go, you know.
Phil 1:15:31
So with that, we will catch you all here on the next episode of origin story. Thanks again for checking out the show. If you would like to follow me on Twitter, it is three D Cisco on Twitter as well as Instagram. And you can follow Ben on Twitter at sad underscore radio underscore lad. We wanted to thank melody Hirsch, who designed all the awesome cover art and design work for the website and the podcast itself. And we wanted to thank Ryan Hopper who does all the intro and outro music, as well as some of the interstitial stuff you hear, and dinner in different episodes. If you enjoyed the show, we'd love it. If you left a review on iTunes, you know, subscribed on either iTunes or Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. You know, reviews help just get the show in front of more people. And only takes a couple of minutes. So yeah, if you could do that for us, it'd be greatly appreciate it.
Ben 1:16:34
You should also visit our website at WWW dot origin story dot show. It's a great place to look at all of our episodes that are full transcripts and a link to our Discord channel, where we talk with listeners about everything Oh, s and beyond. There's a lot of posting that goes on in there. So I don't know if you're into that and come join us. You can also email us at the origin story pod@gmail.com We're always looking for feedback, whether it's ideas for games that we should play books, or we should read guests that we should have on the show. Just hit us up with thoughts feelings. We're always looking for feedback, even if it's that Ben has an annoying voice and you don't want to hear it anymore. I mean, that's totally fine. So write us in. You can also follow us on Twitter at at origin story underscore or our Instagram at origin story dot show. As always, thanks for listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
