Xalavier Nelson Jr. (Strange Scaffold) on Creating a More Sustainable Games Industry
Episode Description
Xalavier Nelson Jr. is a writer and narrative designer who also founded the game studio Strange Scaffold. He is most well known for titles such as Hypnospace Outlaw, Can Androids Pray, An Airport For Aliens Currently Run By Dogs, and more.
He’s currently working on titles such as Sunshine Shuffle, and the neo-noir shooter El Paso, Elsewhere.
We talked to Xalavier about trying to create sustainability in the games industry, why games are the best way to explore how systems work, and why he says "fuck games as empathy machines."
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can follow Xalavier Nelson Jr. here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:19
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe, and Ben, to kick off season three of origin story. We talked to zawiera Nelson Jr, who is a Writer and Narrative Designer, who also founded a weird and sustainable game studio called strange scaffold. He's most known for titles such as Hypno space out LA, can androids prey, and this really quirky game called an airport for aliens currently run by dogs, which is literally like, you play as somebody in an airport that's run by dogs and the dogs like, aren't 3d models, they're literally stock photos of dogs. So that just kind of gives you an indication of kind of the the quirkiness and energy of Zavier. And this was a really fun conversation.
Ben 1:26
Yeah, I feel I feel like Xavier is someone who I knew from his online presence, and because he would post these photos of like, Hey, this is my this is my airport dog game, or this is my Oregon trading simulator. He always has these games that are like, super creative and immediately kind of make you stop and go like, Wait, what did i What did I just read? Like, what am I looking at here? And so I don't know, just like super interesting. And then I think being able to sit down and talk to him, you get to the heart of like, why he's able to do these really creative, really interesting games that always again, kind of catch your attention.
Phil 2:04
Yeah, I mean, I think a perfect example of something that is aloe vera is work is there's always something kind of bubbling underneath the surface. So like I went, when I was doing research for this episode, he has a new game coming out called Sunshine shuffle, which on the surface is this really quirky, cute looking game with animals who are like, the ultimate bank heist, or like heist thieves. And the game itself is like a poker game. And for me, like, I don't think I've ever played poker in my life. So I was immediately kind of like, well, that's not for me. But then I he made this tic tock where he was talking about, like, you know, people are asking him questions about like, what's the story behind sunshine shuffle? And he's like, Well, you know, on on the surface, it's a poker game. But what it's really about is exploring the idea of what if you peaked already in your youth, and how do you continue going on living and I was just like, what? And I think that's kind of like all of us out here as work is kind of grappling with these kinds of surface level things that once you dig a little bit deeper, you're like, well, there's all these this thematic resonance so yeah, we I think I think this conversation we get into so much from making game development more sustainable. You know, his own Christian, Christian faith, and so much more. It was like a really fun conversation.
Ben 3:38
Yeah, it really was i Yeah, let's let's dive into it. Let's do it.
Phil 4:00
Xalavier Nelson Jr. is a Writer and Narrative Designer who also founded the game studio strange scaffold. He is most well known for titles such as Hypno space outlaw, can androids pray an airport for aliens currently run by dogs and more. And currently, he's working on titles such as sunshine shuffle, and the Neo noir shooter, El Paso elsewhere. zawiera thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, how you doing? You were just telling us right before we started recording that things are in cosmic disarray. But you're, you're running with it.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 4:37
Sure enough, scaffold is in a really interesting place right now where it's increasingly clear that our medium, but your games as a medium is in a deeply weird place. It's not positioned for sustainability. It's not positioned for freedom. It's not positioned for creative autonomy, or for the real The the human needs of the people inside of it. However, everyone outside of video games is looking at our medium and astounded by the present that is possible film. They had rentals gone, the direct to home video market is gone. It's now streaming it is. It is theaters in a really weird place between what they show and what the public will actually watch compared to things they would even watch 10 years ago. Music direct again, direct sales, community building has become kind of nightmarish. It is contractually obligated for artists to make tic TOCs in their contract instead of getting a a marketing budget or having a music video made. Because what the labels are betting on is going viral. And that is up to the artists to advocate and defend themselves in this regard. Everyone playing this cosmic dice game literature, really weird place compared to where it has been. We have ups and downs and things like the direct distribution model, such as the Kindle and how that's evolved over time as Amazon has gained kind of a monopoly over that market. really distressing place. And all of them are looking at video games, where the barriers are so low, where the gatekeepers are comparatively less powerful, and less, less elaborate in their devices. They are less numerous. They're looking at video games where original IP still sells people will take a game with a name that they've never heard of before from a developer they've never heard of before, and fall in love. And they're all looking at us and saying, Wow, this is what you have possible. And what I've realized coming into the beginning of this year, and the to go back to your initial comment about cosmic disarray, the really buckwild thing is having the insight from having worked on over 70 projects at this point, having the perspective now of connecting to other mediums and to other creators, and understanding what they value and see in our industry. And figuring out the next step for myself and for strange scaffold. I've realized kind of what we're trying to do. And I've been in a world putting together all the pieces to communicate that message, which is I'm not fighting for a better future for video games. I'm fighting for a better present, because it's here. All it takes is an acknowledgement and a taking advantage of the wild and temporary place of autonomy, sustainability, and profitability that exists within our medium right now.
Ben 8:00
I'm really here for I think I hear a lot of optimism in there. And you know, I think we've had other conversations with other devs. I'm thinking especially of Neil Jones, who was behind never yield, who has I think made similar comments about looking around at the industries and being like, are we falling into the same traps that other industries have, you know, especially, especially, I think pointing to things like Netflix, and the Netflix model and being like, I'm worried as that comes into games and to things like game paths. So like, where do you see like, what's the what is an optimistic or what is this optimistic future for, for a games present look like to you?
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 8:37
Honestly, it exists. In conscious recognition of one's overall placement, as we simultaneously have this freedom and ability open to us, a lot of those doors are being closed, because folks don't seem to want to pursue those opportunities. Right, if you look at the games industry that existed in the PSU era, undoubtedly, you know, are weirder and worse in several ways, right? We didn't have the widespread technology and availability and accessibility for game development. We had to basically only distribute games, through store shelves and buy space on the shelves for better placement, independent game development, not really as much of a thing. And then, you know, you look at that market though. And what are the games that are flourishing, you have giant things like Halo, ml, you're solid, but also things like Katamari tamashi And like EDF getting off the ground in those games not selling a huge amount of copies but also being sustainable for the developers involved getting a cold audience from software in the games they were pumping pumping pumping out during that time like kingsfield armored court cetera and looking at their output them and Looking at the massive Odysseys in place where you are now not only can you see lineage, the perspective that is carried them to still exist now, but also ways in which they've had to bend to a market that as we recognize that a single game can pull in more revenue, the question arises like, then why would we make five things when we can make one? Why put $500,000 here in $5 million here, and $20,000 here, and $1 million here, when we can put $10 million on 10 different bets, and one of them will explode the degree that all the other losses are covered. I would say, recognizing where industry exists is where my optimism comes from, recognizing what our industry is doing with that opportunities, where my pessimism comes from. Because looking at those factors, a lot of where we are moving in terms of our investment investment in our creative impulses, or at least where our creative impulses are finding funding, is, there's no other way to describe outside of gambling. And that is what concerns me about the future. And it is the thing that, again, gives me the optimism that I do have as far as strange scaffold, because we tried to do the traditional thing, I tried to work in AAA, there's been different routes that the studio taken that I could have taken. And one way or another, we have ended up in a place right now in the studio with myself, where we get to exist on the beautiful frontier of what this medium currently provides. And we aren't going to trade it for for nothing recognizing its value.
Phil 11:53
I love that. I think like, you know, so for the listeners, I talked us out of here, I guess last week, or maybe it was earlier this week. Yeah, we're not whenever that was in the Time Vortex about like sustainability, and games and making, you know, kind of a more sustainable process for game development and things like that. And something is aloe vera that maybe you can you know, extrapolate from that I've still been kind of mulling over that you told me is this idea that, you know, currently right now if exchange scaffold and your work, you're at a place where for when you're talking to publishers and things like that, it's much easier to get a game that's got a budget, that's like $2 million, versus $20,000. And how studios and publishers aren't really interested in like investing in like these smaller games. And I wonder if maybe you could unpack maybe why that is and you know why, you know, strange scaffold is kind of trying to, to allow that kind of avenue to to to be a reality going forward.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 12:59
So there's a logic to it, which is a game with $2 million self selects for a certain type of developer who can receive that money, someone who can receive and spend $20,000, effectively, there's often far less infrastructure around them, and far less guarantee that they that the investment is going to be even produce a final product, right? A lot of people underestimate a lot of people, especially with games being the very multifaceted medium it is we do not have a institutional practice or perspective of estimation, and of knowledge around our proc practices. So everyone's makes the joke is everyone makes a small project, it's only gonna take two weeks, two years later. So what I would say is, the logic to it is a game of $2 million. Self selects for developer itself selects for a certain level of fidelity and polish. And from that prism, you can see the logic of, well, if we can afford to invest $1,000,000.02 million dollars, taking those bets in the space that a game like that exists within in the market gives us a lot of leverage for having a more potentially profitable game. However, again, that does mean because these games are being selected based off of the same criteria of the same perspective and goals for their creation and conditions of their production. Similar milestone schedules of standardization and arbitrary standardization of what their production process can and should be. We end up in this really, really wild scenario, where we have simultaneously more freedom and accessibility of technology, and ability to make things better Better, faster, cheaper and healthier than we ever have before. You know, coincidentally, the motto of shrink scout was better, faster, cheaper, healthier, we've got those tools in our hands, but we're choosing games and putting them into structures that fit the investment structures or publishing perspectives that are taking the games on as opposed to what fits the developer and what fits the project. What that results in is this really weird feeling where whether you're playing a roguelike, or you're playing an action game, or you're playing a puzzle game, you start to feel this weird, underlying baseline, the sense that even though you're playing different games, you're playing the same game. Because when you make games under the same condition, to the same goals, what they are as a product, changes process results in product. And what we are seeing games as this really wild, invisible, flattening, of what a video game can be based off of what we assume, can sell, can reach people, reach press can be made efficiently and effectively and get back a return. What we're fighting right now, in video games are not facts, we're fighting assumptions. And those are the things that, again, put our medium in a really weird place as far as long term sustainability. Because when you're fighting a weird collective group thing that only changes when an outlier occurs. And then, you know, everybody spins up and says, Actually, locks are riskier than the future. Actually, everybody loves deck builders. And there is very little precedent for intentionally choosing a different tack.
Ben 16:48
Can you kind of talk about like, what is your ethos for why games? And like, you know, why not books? Or movies? Or what is it about games as a medium that speaks to you.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 17:00
I mean, exactly, like, as I said, video games exists in a very exceptional space right now, there's no other place where I can think of, in which I could have existed or resulted, especially with the amount of autonomy that I have right now, even when I was not in the place where I am career wise. You know, five years ago, the space that I was in, in the living, I was able to eke out, basically doesn't exist in so many other places. And I'd say my ethos is having this freedom, having this really active joy of creative process and having this perspective of long term of long term creation. I want to at the very least to be a standard bearer and speak to and speak to what is possible for all of us here.
Phil 18:10
Yeah, I mean, I think something I was I was thinking about just reading through some interviews of yours is, you've talked about how like you grew up in a military family travelled a lot, lived a bunch of different places, and have all these wild kind of experiences from all the variety of places you've lived, you know, something that, you know, through doing the show, and talking to people that work in games, that seems to be true across the board, for the most part. It's like nobody really has a traditional journey into the industry, like the industry is still young enough where like, yeah, there's certain people I guess, who like went to school and did it, but for for the most part, people's journeys into the games industry tend to be pretty nonlinear, and go in a variety of different places. I'm curious for you, like, how did you end up and in this space? Initially, I
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 19:03
mean, that's kind of the wild thing, right? Where, where I was a military kid. I've never lived in an industry hub, the boondocks of Washington State, where a literal cult reigns. And no one told us about it ahead of time, a small town in northern Italy, which happens to be the again center of the alt right movement. We keep moving to weird places, and no one telling us ahead of time that we're going to have some interesting adventures. The the El Paso, Texas, which is where the last place where my family moved and where I've settled and kind of life for myself. Those aren't industry hubs, and yet I've been able to participate in industry. I started as a 12 year old looking, you know, reading gaming news and realizing that games journalists get games for free they'd be like, Oh, that's objectively the best job. That's the best job that ever is or will exist. And I got to pretend to be an adult on the internet, and start in might medium of choice, you could argue that there's a lot of problems with that, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But that possibility was nevertheless there as someone who I didn't have. Like an uncle who worked at Nintendo, I didn't live in an industry hub, all of the traditional all the traditional factors available to me. Were all nutritional factors, sorry, that result in someone's success or ability to enter a creative medium, were not present for me. And yet, I'm able to be here. And so I have this deep gratitude and desire to have everyone that I work with all of my peers. I'm convinced, the most versatile, empathetic and on the whole, forward thinking. People who exist, I want them to have the same freedom, autonomy and sense of safety that I have.
Ben 21:29
Just real briefly, did I read that you started? You're kind of started your games journalist career at like, 12 or 13. Is that right?
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 21:37
Yeah, that was I was 12 years old, pretended to be an adult on the internet. And it says, I don't know what it says about our industry that it worked out. But it did.
Phil 21:47
I feel like like Patrick Lepik had a similar like, he was like, at waypoint had a similar like, he was like 14, or something like that when he started, like revealing games. That's why I believe Jeff
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 21:59
Keeley was also either 11 or 12. They didn't know when he applied for the press event for the Nintendo 64 that he was a 11 or 12 year old kid, and that he showed up in a little suit and was doing interviews. And now here he is,
Ben 22:12
did anyone at any point clock they were like, wait a minute, you know, this game is being reviewed by someone who's definitely like 13?
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 22:20
Not to my knowledge. I love that.
Phil 22:26
Have you gone back and looked at any of that?
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 22:29
No, I know that the site, I will not say the name of the website. It exists in infamy and in the shadows. And yeah, I am very fortunate and thankful that I had the opportunity to get out a lot of bad writing so that by the time my career started, yeah, I had several years of a practice. I've now been here. It's gonna be 14 years. In the near future, and Coming up on eight years in game development,
Ben 23:08
I wanted to ask you this question. I've been reading some interviews with you. And it seems like a lot of your work is motivated or at least underpinned by your faith. And I'm wondering if you can talk about how that's shaped the kinds of games that you make, and why that matters. Um,
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 23:26
I think the interesting thing about being a Christian in the video game industry is that there's simultaneously a lot of material in and around Christianity that exists within games within the lore of worlds. And it's kind of the distressing recognition that most of it is from people who are have been deeply hurt by religion. And so you're just kind of seeing a distorted funhouse mirror of your faith constantly. There like I, I do not blame you, I get it that that really sucks. And alternatively, kind of a discomfort with being very active and vocal about your faith in comparison, because you exist in a medium in which a lot of your peers have been hurt by churches, by individuals by institutional or religious structures that do not see them as human are worthy of dignity or love. So trying to take a holistic approach in my life and in my perspective, of ethics, and of, in my case, in my case, like a faith in Jesus Christ. I just kind of tried to let it be a part of anything and everything I do, whether it's how I interact with a negative comments are in the Steam forums, or when I'm building a supernatural world, original World in the case of El Paso and elsewhere. Like, where does God exist? Here, the player never knows of God or of the idea or existence of faith in this universe, nonetheless. How does the invisible underpinning of this world reflect a universe that and a and a Divine Being that I, I believe in. It takes a different form. In every project, there's a lot of games where you're not necessarily expect there to be any thought about the presence or idea of God like space warlord org and trading simulator, a capitalist hell. But I think if there is one universal underpinning for all of these projects, from the perspective of someone of faith, it is a core belief in the necessity for the autonomy, love, and dignity of sentient creatures. Whether it's the heist crew of sunshine shovel, or a universe run by dogs, and airport for aliens from currently run by dogs, I am looking at every universe and attempting to take that human approach, we were made in the image of God, if I if I truly believe that I have to approach every fictional universe I built with the idea of human dignity, and of sentient dignity and care, as a foundation, even when the world or circumstances involved are quite cruel. So as a long story short, I'd say, has a faith emerge, it's, I see the dignity and humanity of all people, and the existence of God as fact, and approach every fictional universe and build accordingly,
Ben 27:01
I listened to, in particular, a really great interview with you with theology of work. And they talked about an airport for aliens currently run by dogs, where you discussed this idea of games, and I'm kind of paraphrasing you here a bit, but as a space for interacting with etiology. And that, you know, in that game, you're incentivized to start showing gratefulness and appreciation for not just the dogs, but everything like trash cans and vending machines. And so I guess, you know, just that this gets to directly what you're saying, and maybe you can talk about it more, but games as a space where, even if you know the ideology isn't explicit, but it's teaching you that or it's helping you engage with a worldview through its mechanics, every
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 27:43
piece of a game has the potential to tell you about the world, the creators and the intent of the of the game itself, I believe, I don't believe in death of the author. But I do believe that especially when there is functionality to ensure some level of especially when there is functionality to ensure some level of consistency within the work itself. The game tells you what the game is trying to be in. If you listen, you can hear it. So Dogger poor game being a really perfect example. Every piece of the game was as absurd as it is built from the core perspective of treating the game world and its concept quite seriously, despite its absurdity, and saying, How is the core ethos of this world communicated or respected to an element? There is there was an idea early on in the project of how do we represent airport security. And I had an idea of a dog named cop dog, and cop dog, there'd be like little signs around the airport of like cockta like a cop dog zones. And if you walked into them, there was a random chance that cop dog would come down from the sky. ask you if you had any illegal goods, do a quick scan of you. And if he found anything, he would say you slide dog and he would switch to a different character model character model being a stock photo and then ascend into the sky again and you would have your valuables taken so you would record require you to navigate the airport in a different way to get around a cop dog zone if you had something illegal need to bring it for a quest to a different area. And then Ferguson happened at a dog named cop dog didn't seem like such a good idea, or as funny as it was previously. And I realized that cop dog as much as it was a game mechanic and a narrative piece that fit the absurdity of the world. If it wasn't reflecting the ethos, the ethos of the game was, dogs see everyone as having inherent value, no matter who you are a world that is fundamentally joyful. And cares about you. Just because you're here. How do you represent that. And so the final form of that character is a dog named security dog. Safety dog, sorry, safety dog has little, a little kiosk at every airport. And if you find him, he's like, Hey, I'm just keeping the airport safe. If you find anything that will be unsafe, or hurt someone, bring it to me, and I'll give you something cool. at every location, he'll give you something that you can only get at that location, this other unique little thing. And players, even if there's no incentive outside of just like interacting with cops, and they'll be like, Hey, I got a gun from a dog named Gorby. Is this dangerous? Like, say dogs? Like, yep, let me give you a curse, Jim, I hope it isn't more dangerous. And it's, it's less work. First of all, in terms of the development, like a cop dog would have been a mess to implement. But the not only did it reduce our scope, but it also was more as a better reflection of the ethos. So that's been an interesting process of in my games, even you know, supporting and advocating for frictional elements. Because as a storyteller, working in video games with game mechanics, this is this frictional element is our opportunity to say something about the game, and about the game's world. And we lose that entirely. As soon as we smooth off an edge, every edge that gets smoothed off has to have a reason that fits the game and otherwise, because otherwise, what you've done is you've reduced the thesis statement in the world itself.
Phil 31:57
I love that that kind of reminds me of I don't know if you've played a Yakuza, like a dragon. But something I really appreciate in that game is getting at that kind of how it uses friction, to kind of uphold some of its messages as like you, you kind of go through the first two chapters, and then you get thrown into the homeless encampment. And you know, there's a lot of like slapstick kind of stuff that happens. And that chapter is like beating up the gang leaders and things like that. But then after you beat up the gang leaders, I forget the Ichiban, the main character, he kind of he kind of basically says, the whole like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps things like the homeless people, like why aren't they just getting a job because, you know, they have skills and stuff like that. And then there's this great moment of his, his companion kind of dislike, reprimands him and kind of talks about how he's reducing down like some of their their problems. And this is systemic and justices that have put these people into this place. And I feel like it's just a really great moment of the game kind of going against some of its tone, too. And using that friction to kind of uphold this message that for a lot of gamers, they might not have ever thought about like homelessness in that way. And yeah, I think it kind of speaks to some of what you're getting at with, with how games can utilize that.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 33:24
Yeah, it's there, there's there's all there's game systems give you the opportunity to question the world to question or reflect the world as it exists, and get people to think about it. So space Portland, Oregon Train Simulator. In building the game, we had a really interesting point where we had every individual stock was on its own curve. But also we had a sort of wider market parameters thing, that kind of its intention wasn't to equalize the market. But it was kind of like a core systemic justification of why the market was going up and down. And that was the kind of the invisible we call it the hand of the market. That was the invisible simulation. Players didn't buy it. They were like every stock feels the same. The market doesn't feel like a distinct entity. We removed the hand of the market and made everything Calvin Ball gobbly gook. Just a random mish moss mess of god awful. Chaos. And suddenly, people loved it. They're like, Oh, yeah, this is like the stock market as it exists. And when we did a little bit of research, we realized oh, oh, no. This is actually just the economy. This is the economy. It is random num First given interpretation in hindsight or in foresight, and I haven't invested in the stock market as a result, I am terrified by the economic underpinnings of my world because that's an example of like how even developing a game can give you a different understanding of systems as they exist. So sort of challenging players and how they see things and being like hmm a game about you know, chopping up bodies and then selling off their organs might be really unpalatable and unpleasant intention you know, positively so or not that's for someone else to find. But when we take the middleman out, and it's just you and organs and organs that's it's weird. It's bad soul organs, but someone's giving you money and you just made the number go up and wait, spleens are on they're having their third day of massive dips, if I buy the dip. Now, when it goes back up, I can make it like, like, how would Pete the amount of comments we get of people realizing how quickly they don't care, what they're making money from or how ethically dubious it is, as long as they're making money, especially because they're not personally involved in the harvest thing, or interaction of these factors is fascinating. And that's something that kind of video games can only do. So again, I really relish the opportunity to ask those questions mechanically and say, Oh, how do we think differently about our world as a result or of the systems that we engage with intentionally? And whenever I see a missed opportunity for that I do mourn a little bit because I'll say it fuck video games is empathy machines being presented with poverty doesn't make you care more about poor people. But watching Ichi Bong, Echo an argument of poverty and having his companion tell him off from a perspective of empathy or being presented with a scenario and realizing kind of the boots problem if you're familiar with that from Discworld. Are y'all familiar? So Discworld Terry Pratchett had a really philosophical treatise embedded in just a few paragraphs in one of his books, it's become known as a boots problem, because main character is this, you know, fantasy Sheriff named boots, a man with a deep ethical core, who also engages with the systems of his world. And he realized that if you can afford 100 gold pieces to buy a pair of boots, that pair of boots will last you five or 10 years. But if you can only afford 10, or 20 gold pieces, those boots will wear out in a couple of months. And so you end up spending more than the person who already has more. The those who have less are punished for their poverty. And that kind of when you're presented with a game where perhaps you are in a position of poverty or being behind and you just can't get out of that hole because of the factors. That result is incredibly fascinating, especially if the work intentionally engages with it. We found this for space warlord as well, where we realized once you have enough money, the game outside of the arbitrary mechanical challenge financially could not confront you. Because if we made all the stocks to go down, you would just invest your hoard into piles, stocks, so that when they went up even a little bit, you made more money than you ever had in the first place. If we made the stocks go up, and the value of what you already had, again, also went up and seeing people again, on the forums say, hey, when I get enough money, I kind of just when we look directly into the camera and say yeah, that's really weird how that happens. Hmm. The only way for us to push against that is to have some arbitrary, the only way we can push against that is to have some arbitrary metric of of challenge or have are really good. Give me a because even if we tried to find this for economic penalties if we tried to have you know, randomized factors come against you, if you are rich, 10,000 credits means nothing to you. If you don't have 10,000 credits, or it's all bound up in the market or something else, that 10,000 credits bankruptcy and you can't come back, and we don't as developers outside of going increasingly Galaxy brain have levers to push back against The way capitalism works. So we just presented as it is,
Ben 40:05
I really love everything you're saying. But especially I think, like, I want to zero in on kind of what you're saying here. But fuck video games as empathy machines, is what you're saying here is that like, as a medium to tell a straight story that you hope will elicit empathy and so on. Not the best, but as a place where we can come to understand systems and get people thinking about systems, it's really good at that.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 40:31
Yes, I think if a player is presented with poverty, like I've seen VR things, not to pick on anyone, but like, do it I was doing. And I'm, I'm sure someone has made this VR thing, or there's been multiple things like that. But like, VR, you're homeless person. You're homeless. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's, it hurts, doesn't it? It is sad seeing the trash upon the streets. That isn't that doesn't make people care more. In fact, in fact, it reduces their ability to care because they feel like they have joined with the struggle because I to put on a VR headset, and was inside of a cardboard box. I feel you brother. This is one of the struggles of civil rights movies, I'll get, I'll get spicy on Black History Month. Every time you saw slave get whipped. And it's like, ah, mass, no. Or like some civil rights leader gets like pelted in stoically with with with a rock and we see the blood flow down. It's like, does that make the audience say I gotta fight against systems of oppression, or against the factors now? No, it doesn't, really does not often motivate change. But being presented with a game world where to go back to the poverty example. You don't, here's, so I'm going to present something that I have presented nowhere else before. It's a game concept for sure that I've been working on Esrange scaffold, behind the scenes, it's not complete. But the system of mechanics and loops and like communicates are really strong already. The game doesn't have a name, actually might have a name, if I can find my notebook. Real quick, one second. Sure. It's called last semester,
Ben 42:30
last semester, last semester.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 42:34
Last semester is a game where you are straight A student coming from a difficult home life, and your couch surfing in your last year of high school. And it's a UI by UI based simulation. And it's about the struggle, and the lat the lack of autonomy that comes from existing on other people's mercy, and grace and tolerance of you. So every day, you are choosing every day or set of days, you're choosing a host to stay with for a period of time. And every host has a tolerance meter and strings attached to happen that bed. So you stay with the hyper conservative Christian family, they always have family dinner, a condition of you staying in that home is you no longer get to choose what you do with that evening. So it's a kind of a similar, it's kind of a choose what you do every day period, kind of thing, like persona, but your day blocks are determined by what you're essentially forced to do your ability to excel in your academics, that is inherently tied to if you stay with your friend on his party couch, and you aren't getting sleep. That means you physically do not have the ability to come back from that and you're making playing the best with the hand that you're dealt. I have known people who lived this. I have not in this specific academic situation. But I have also, I think a lot of people can identify with the conditions that come with a free bed. And when when slash if I ever make this game. The fact that the player will if a player asks, Hey, why can I choose what like why can I just you know, piss off that family. I'm actually like, one of the things that we have here is that I have here as a mechanic where you can choose to blow that off potentially. But their tolerance meter goes way down. And if it goes all the way down, you can never stay on that bet of bet again. And you've still got 60 days left before the end of the semester. These are the questions and the possibilities of games that fascinate me because they They do not present us with a thing empathy machine. They present us with a rendered world with a perspective that, because we have gone through the process of exploring that perspective, and that set of systems, if we call out one specific system as bullshit, that motivates change, because you have seen, you know what, no kid should have food uncertainty. So school lunches should be free is a thought that you can come to because you're engaging with a system where you realize where when that is not the case, how much breaks down? And how much that hurts? You weren't looking at the hurting, you're hurting yourself.
Phil 45:52
Now, I love that. I mean, I think like, you know, when we had talked earlier, when we were talking about, like, sustainability, this bleeds right into it. I love how you were telling me like, for an industry that cares so much about systems and making systems and everything like that? Like we Yeah, yeah. So like games have the possibility to show people how systemic, you know, whether it's inequities or, you know, systemic change could happen. And it doesn't have to be like us just telling people, you know, X example. And I think like your example of a was seen last semester is
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 46:29
also for a game industry that were built around systems, us not confronting the systems ourselves of our own industry. Kind of buck wild, right? That'd be weird, right?
Phil 46:41
Exactly. So if anything, we'll shut that game sounds really hype. It kind of reminds me a little bit of like, just hearing the concept. It reminds me of how I felt when I played citizen sleeper, and I felt like that game did a really phenomenal job of using the mechanics to talk about the systemic inequities.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 47:02
Yeah, like, especially you starting out with nothing, and you're just kind of trying to get yourself out of a hole, you don't have enough energy to like work that day necessarily, or to get the best paying job you can. And you're figuring out okay, do I go to sleep, so I have more energy tomorrow. But also, if I haven't eaten, that's going to take from my energy bar. It's a beautiful set of systems working together to make you feel things not as an own animistic pursuit of enlightenment, by living through a perspective, but by just by engaging with the world. Yeah,
Ben 47:37
I know, we've got that heart out in three minutes. Closing thoughts.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 47:42
I mean, we can talk about who killed JFK again, I'm not gonna say the name on air, but we can talk about
Ben 47:47
you have the answer, and it's hidden in each of your games. Is that what I'm understanding here?
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 47:52
The CIA has killed enough black people. You can't do this to me. You can't do this to me, Benjamin.
Ben 48:00
I'm sorry, I didn't I didn't mean to put the crosshairs right over your head. We should probably end right now. This is all getting into doubt.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 48:09
Well, here's the thing, if it if it does get people to buy more strange scaffold games, it makes more sense more sustainable to bring more unique things into the world. Maybe we leave it in May we leave it in like
Ben 48:21
you tell me what you want. And we're just going to follow your lead. I feel like that's the that's what we'll do.
Phil 48:25
Yeah, I think we leave it in. I'm ready for the forum posts of people like slowly going through every strange scaffold game looking for the connections.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 48:34
They're like, Man, I saw like, Wait, so you have a shooter game. And like, there's like a bullet icon? Is this a magic bullet? I'm just like, you're good at
Phil 48:43
it all serious
Ben 48:44
bionics game.
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 48:47
Final thoughts. The big final thought I have is just that. We have two stories happening games are the stories that we're telling inside of games are becoming increasingly diverse, increasingly wide ranging in their subject material. And we have the story of the games industry itself. I think there's any point in history, where we have had the ability to as individuals to influence the story of what video games are in can be. It exists right now. Every time we support developers, when they move on from a game intentionally as we just saw her back for blood in the headlines yesterday, back for blood, they did a DLC, they did updates. They're like we're moving on to our next game. People were like Dead game. No, nothing is nothing improves from existing forever. We if you add another 10 hours to the Godfather, that doesn't make it a better movie. And yet we consider for video games that something that is endlessly expanded is, quote unquote, better right when we support developers errs, who make one offs. And we support developers moving on from works when we support developers and creators existing and autonomy on different scales at different times with different goals. We are single handedly with our dollars, with our Twitter posts, with our with every action we have in this uniquely visible world, metric driven world, we can say that the human dignity and freedom and creative spirit is something worth supporting. And I believe that we deserve to give each other that chance.
Ben 50:40
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you.
Phil 50:45
That was great. We really appreciate all of your
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 50:49
keep it at least some of the JFK that's the JFK. Oh, that's good.
Phil 50:58
Yeah, thanks for thanks for taking the time and doubling up having two conversations with me and then over the last week or so. So
Xalavier Nelson Jr. 51:06
it's been a delight meeting both of you all and I look forward to staying in touch. Yeah, for sure. next time, bye.
Phil 51:27
And that was our conversation with Zaheer Nelson Jr. About all things strange scaffold about sustainability and games, and and so much more, then, with this conversation, what were some things that really kind of resonated with you?
Ben 51:47
One of the things that feels obvious, like now that I am going to put it into words, but like really stood out to me, and I think was something that I was excited to talk to all of you about, was this idea that like, at the end of the day, the thing that games are best at is getting people engaging with systems. Again, like something that that feels obvious when you kind of just say it out loud, but I think that I don't usually think about engaging with games in that way. I'm often like, Oh, what is this story doing? Or like, what are you know, what's what's going on with like the, you know, the narrative that it's trying to tell. But I think Xavier is someone who's like, super aware of the mechanics, and like how the mechanics link up with that story. And I think the way that he talks about it in that way, like, really, for whatever reason, helps me put a lot of those pieces together.
Phil 52:40
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think we talked about it in the show. But yeah, that how you how we can be using games to systemically show, you know, complex ideas, to players without kind of being didactic, I think was was really powerful. And like, Yeah, I mean, I think he kind of elucidate it to me, like why something like citizens sleeper, have worked so well for me, right. And something that I think I mentioned it on the show, but I had talked us out of your, like a week prior to this interview, when I at first kind of I had read an interview of his that was talking about sustainability. And I don't really feel that we see a whole lot of conversations about sustainability in the games industry. So I just kind of wanted to talk to him about it, and kind of how he's running his studio. And yeah, and that conversation, is something that bleeds into this whole idea of like, systemic learning is he was talking about you know, the irony that the games industry that games development is all about creating systems. And, you know, having these systems interact with each other and communicate to the player, you know, a variety of ideas and concepts. But the irony is that, for an industry that cares so much about developing systems, we aren't there isn't much care for developing, you know, systems that allow for sustainable work and healthy workplaces. And that's why we're seeing so many issues around you know, toxic work environments, crunch and game development, and so much more. And I think that is alyvia Does does a really good job of kind of unpacking a lot of that stuff. So I really appreciated the between these two conversations I've had with him just like talking about that stuff.
Ben 54:45
Yeah, he got super excited when you were like, I think putting putting those threads together. It's like, hey, the job of the Game Dev is to think about systems and implementing systems. But why aren't we thinking about systems within our own workplaces that we're or upholding or the the problems of those systems. And kind of the the irony there of like your job being thinking about like how all these things fit together and then not like expanding that out to your workplace. I think it's it's a really like, good conversation because it's one that we're always having, I think in games, and I know that this happens in other industries too, but it always feels like it's like, right on the surface with games and gaming, where it's like, what is wrong with this workplace? And, you know, why is this happening here? And why are we doing these things this way here? That comes up, like at least what like every couple of months, three months, where it's like, Hey, why is this game studio like a complete fucking mess? And then sitting down and be like, but I kind of like that game. And there's some pretty good systems in there. That is, like, I don't know, just on top of anytime I engage with a game, that's not always, you know, front of mind. For me when I'm like watching a TV show, or even reading a novel to some extent. I'm just like, oh, yeah, sure. There might have been some problems here. But it's not like in my face in the same way where it's like, you know, when I sit down and play a game now, I'm like, what was the studio? Like? Like, who lost time with their family? Because they were, like, stuck working on this thing?
Phil 56:20
Yeah, I mean, I think something in relation to that, that I was thinking about is just, you know, he has this he has his aloe vera has this great moment where, you know, we're talking about how he's kind of an advocate for smaller, weirder games and like shorter development processes. And, you know, I think I'd asked him about how, you know, why is it so much easier to get like $2 million, versus $20,000. And kind of, it was really interesting how he unpacked that and talked about how, you know, who, who's trusted with the money, and what studios are trusted with the money and how that those track records that various studios have, that afforded them these publishing deals and things like that often pushes them to kind of basically make the same couple games over and over and over again, until there's a unicorn, and then everybody kind of jumps on that boat. And, you know, I think that was a really kind of, of the moment thing for him to bring up. Because, you know, I think just this last week, we're seeing the kind of reckoning of the last five to six years of live service games, games, like, you know, Apex legends and the Avengers game. And rumble verse and all these kinds of games that jumped on this bandwagon of like, how can we be fortnight. And what we're seeing now is that, you know, just in the last week, 10 of those games got canceled. And they won't be producing any more content for them. And they've, these companies have spent millions and millions and millions of dollars on making these games. And it kind of is like for nothing, you know, you kind of ultimately get this, this unfinished product that was that that wasn't fully the full, the full capacity of probably what they had dreamed up wasn't fully realized by the and you know, that's not great, right? I think it's alyvia does a good job of kind of breaking down. You know why those things happen? And you know, that there is another way doesn't have to be this way.
Ben 58:40
Yeah, and I know that you've been kind of banging this drum with me for a while now. But like getting getting me to think about, like, Oh, hey, if you're a person who has been working with one studio, and the dev cycle is like, five to seven years, like maybe even longer than that, and over the course of your lifespan in the industry, you only work on like six games, and they're all kind of similar, like, how, how does that feel creatively, like probably not good, that all your games are like, pretty similar, like, not that different, not that exciting. At the end of the day, and then that's like years of your life that's dedicated to that.
Phil 59:17
Yeah, yeah. And one thing we didn't get, we didn't get to in this conversation. This is a bit of a of a aside, but you know, with my first conversation was aloe vera. I was talking to them a lot about crunch. And if I can, kind of summarize quickly, like his perspective, I think is largely like, crunch is more is less about like how much time somebody is working. So like, he gave an example of, he's worked on certain projects or at studios where he's worked 60 hours a week and felt really fulfilled. And then on the flip side, he's worked at companies that he was working part time for, like 510 hours and he wanted to quit the games and St. And largely what he kind of learned from that experience is that, when we just think about it in terms of time span, we're kind of flattening the issue because what the issue really is, is like a lack of humans, human centered processes and the game development process and how, oftentimes, these development cycles aren't built with people in mind, you know? So, you know, he talked about how like a lot of burnout, and things like that in the games industry. Sure, some of it is this overwork, just like working a lot. But another ripple is just the secrecy of the industry. And he talked about how he knows so many people who've worked in the industry for like 20 plus years, but can only show work from like one game they've worked on, because so many games have been canceled, and they can't use any of that work in their portfolios, and everything like that, which just makes it a very demoralizing, and demoralizing place. And you can understand what people get burnt out and ended up believing, right? So I think he's really working through with his own studio and his own ethos, like how can we change that? How can we make it so that people can walk away from a project and at any time still be credited and still be able to use that work? In the future? Because, yeah, it's pretty crazy to think that some people will work on, you know, maybe 10 games, and their whole careers, just because of how the development cycles are these days.
Ben 1:01:42
And two of those are gonna get disappeared, right? I think that like that speaks to like our a broader moment that we're in where it's like, this isn't just about games, this is what's happening with Netflix, or this is what's happening with, you know, all these streaming services, where it's like, these shows get churned out, and then they get disappeared after a couple of years, because they don't hit and then it's like, where does that work? Go. And I think we're at a moment where it's like, arts writ large, is like, undervalued in such a way that it's like, oh, these big corpse are just churning out this content. And then if it's not, you know, hitting in the way that they want it to, it's just deleted, and then there goes all your work. And it's just like, I don't know, it's, it's a hard, it's a hard place to be in like, I can't imagine what it's like to be as a creator. But I feel like even as someone who consumes this stuff, I'm often like, what are we like, what are we doing here? And like, how is any of this sustainable? How can we keep having, you know, massive chunks of change, shoveled into projects? And then, you know, they just go nowhere, or they're cancelled after like, two seasons?
Phil 1:02:48
Yeah, I mean, I mean, the thing is, I think, from working at like, outer loop games, and talking to some folks out there, talking to Salovey are like, it, it's clear to me that, like, it doesn't have to be this way, right. And that's kind of the really demoralizing place that I think a lot of people feel in working in any kind of entertainment industry, or like a news or like anything like that, currently. So I think that if anything, outside of this being a really good conversation, I think Zavier talking to his elevator has kind of given us like, one little notch that we can be thinking about this season, as we talk to more some more guests about, like sustainability and kind of dislike, you know, imagining an otherwise a different kind of way that you know, the various industries that we're that we talk to people in how they can function or how we can find better ways of, you know, making it more of like a human centered place. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about. At the end of this conversation.
Ben 1:04:00
Yeah, I'm extremely here for that. And I'm also I think, like, asking and talking to all of your, I was left with this feeling that like, this is a person who's pretty hopeful, and feels like there's a lot of possibility in this space, which I'm also here for, I think, would you take stock of everything, and to be as like, aware of where the industry is, and still be like, alright, like, we have a moment here where things might turn out like good. I'm about it.
Phil 1:04:30
Yeah. 100%. So yeah, that that was our conversation with zawiera Nelson Jr. If you are interested in learning more about him. You can follow him at on Twitter at RIT Nelson, which is w r i t Nelson. And he's very, very online has a lot of different projects going on, as we talked about in the show, and it's really worth your time if you're looking for kind of weirder games. that maybe you're not going to get, you know, go into your local GameStop or something like that. So with that, we will catch you all here on the next episode of origins. Thanks again for checking out the show. If you would like to follow me on Twitter, it is three D, Cisco on Twitter as well as Instagram. And you can follow Ben on Twitter at sad underscore radio underscore lad. We wanted to thank melody Hirsch, who designed all the awesome cover art and design work for the website and the podcast itself. And we wanted to thank Ryan Hopper who does all the intro and outro music, as well as some of the interstitial stuff you hear, and dinner in different episodes. If you enjoyed the show, we'd love it if you left a review on iTunes, you know, subscribe on either iTunes or Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. You know, reviews help just get the show in front of more people, and only takes a couple of minutes. So yeah, if you could do that for us, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Ben 1:06:09
You should also visit our website at WWW dot origin story dot show. It's a great place to look at all of our episodes. There are full transcripts and a link to our Discord channel, where we talk with listeners about everything Oh, s and beyond. There's a lot of posting that goes on in there. So I don't know if you're into that come join us. You can also email us at the origin story pod@gmail.com We're always looking for feedback, whether it's ideas for games that we should play books, or we should read guests that we should have on the show. Just hit us up with thoughts feelings. We're always looking for feedback, even if it's that Ben has an annoying voice and you don't want to hear it anymore. I mean, that's totally fine. So write us in. You can also follow us on Twitter at at origin story underscore or our Instagram at origin story dot show. As always, thanks for listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
