Naphtali Faulkner (Umurangi Generation) on Politics, Game Design, And The End Of The World
Episode Description
Tali Faulkner is a Maori game developer behind Umurangi Generation, a semi-realistic photography game set in an apocalyptic future with mechs, an occupational United Nations, and the looming threat of the end of the world.
The game recently won the top prize at the Freeplay Independent Games Festival. We talk to Tali about making politics explicit in games, and what it means to be part of the last generation.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can learn more about Umurangi Generation here.
Follow Naphtali Faulkner on Twitter here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:19
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And today we're talking to creator of boomerang generation, Tali Faulkner. Boomerang generation is a photography game set in a futuristic New Zealand that's on the edge of an impending crisis that could end the world. And you're tasked with taking photographs. And throughout the game, you unlock a variety of lenses and other equipment to take the best photos possible. Really awesome game. And this was a really fun conversation. Yeah,
Ben 1:03
you know, I think Phil, you and I were both kind of drawn to this because the the vibes in some ways are like exactly the thing that I think you and I are both drawn to, which is like, you got a little bit of melancholy, you've got some mechs, you've got some big monster chi Jews. And you've also got some thinking about like the end of the world and like what that means for you and kind of the the people who are still surviving. And so I think a lot of that, and a lot of those themes were just like, immediately things that especially for me, just like drew me right in. Tele has kind of talked about how this game is kind of thinking about lots of different kind of failures of government, whether it comes to climate change when it comes to COVID. The game I think he talks about is maybe directly inspired by the 2019 2020, Australian bush fires, and the response or lack of response to those. And so I think all of that is just like stuff that was really kind of felt like a lightning rod of our interests in a lot of
Phil 2:07
ways. Yeah. And it was one of those games where, you know, for whatever reason, during COVID felt like there were a number of games that were coming out that clairvoyantly grappled with some of the problems we were all experiencing at the time, like I think, you know, we've talked about Death Stranding off air in the past and how that almost feels like this weird statement on an event prior to it happening. And in the same token, I think for me, especially being in Seattle, I started hearing about boomerang generation being described as like, even Galleon vibes, which if you know me, like huge nerd about even Galleon, so like that already puts it on the radar, but then also hearing this, this idea of like the Red Sky generation, which is what the the title of the game is referring to and thinking about the fires that were happening on the west coast in California and Canada, and the Pacific Northwest. You know, here in Seattle, there was like, a week at least where the sky was red, and you couldn't go You weren't supposed to go outside you had to wear like a gas mask because of this, the smoke and yeah, the game just came at us really? Like coincidental time for me hearing about it. And it took a little while, a little ways to actually play it. But yeah, I think I was really surprised to see just how prescient the games themes were even outside of the climate crisis, I think especially thinking about like neoliberalism and, and protest and activism. Those are something that we talk a lot about Tali in the conversation, and it really, it was really eye opening.
Ben 3:55
Yeah. And, you know, I think you and I have been talking about this but like, I it's, it's really interesting, the way that politics are embedded into boomerang generation. And the way that it really worked for me, you know, we talked about how kind of they're slowly kind of seated there in the background there in the in the environment, and this is we should say, kind of a photography game, you're going around and taking pictures, and slowly realizing that like something is deeply wrong with the world around you. And I think we had this conversation after Matthew Seiji burns, and actually kind of with Matthew, Matthew Seiji burns, about his visual novel, Eliza, where I was where I was sometimes frustrated with the way politics weren't necessarily foregrounded, in that, that they were kind of backgrounded he really is kind of working to give you a sense of you know, the machinations of the the tech Ender's industry but that's not forefront Right. Like you're getting a lot of different perspectives, but he's not trying to out the gate tell you his thoughts on the tech industry. Is it bad, is it good? And in some ways, I found that kind of grading, and then he You're in Morocco, a generation that worked for me. And I haven't quite been able to parse like, why that is, and like, why in this place it works. But it doesn't necessarily feel like it works for me in the visual novel setting. And I am like, is it something about like interactivity? Is it something about like, him being able to move around the space and learn things a little bit more organically versus a novel, which is like telling you a story? I mean, I don't have the answer. But I'm noticing for me this, like, really different response to political messaging in like both of these games,
Phil 5:36
for sure. And I think, you know, for people who aren't maybe super into like the gaming industry, or kind of conversations that are happening in the, in the industry, there's a so much talk lately, over the last couple years of like, games that are clearly making political statements, and then their companies being unable or unwilling to say that their games are political, or like that they're that they're commenting on any kind of political moment, while still using the imagery, the ideology, or the circumstances, of real world events. And I think that Eliza and uma around the generation are good kinds of touch points to be thinking about how, especially in the indie sphere, there are creators who are thinking about these issues and making statements but doing it in different ways, right? Like, I think with Eliza, it's almost like a landscape painting or an expressionistic painting, excuse me, impressionistic painting where they're like, Matthew is giving us kind of different swathes of ideologies in the in the characters, but kind of allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Whereas like boomerang generation, which we get into in the, in the conversation, it's very much so like, in your face, here is what the ideology is, here's what the political statements are, and the political moments are, and Tali doesn't, you know, move away from those things he actually kind of asks the player to lean in. So I think all of that was, was really interesting and tell he does a good job of contextualize saying a lot of those choices and how he was, you know, creating the game.
Ben 7:21
Yeah. You know what, let's, let's get into it. Let Tony speak for himself,
Phil 7:25
for sure. And I guess one thing before we forget, we wanted to congratulate Tali and the team. Boomerang generation just won the grand prize at the indie game festival, or excuse me, independent game Festival, which is, you know, one of the biggest Indie Game Awards in the world. So, basically, the game is good. But you'll learn more about that ahead. So let's roll the clip. Bla,
Ben 8:11
Tali Faulkner is a Maori game developer behind the Qumran key generation, semi realistic photography game set in an apocalyptic future with Max and occupational United Nations. And the looming threat of the end of the world. The game recently won the top prize at the free play Independent Games Festival. Tele, thank you so much for joining us.
Tali Faulkner 8:31
Yeah, no worries. If you can hear my voice, I have a very Australian accent because I've lived here for far too long. But yeah, I'm really happy to be on here. And, you know, when when Ben sent out the emails, pretty excited, because I think like this whole thing of talking about the people behind the games, I think it's a really positive thing to start to, you know, endorse in this space, because I think far too often there's that idea of, you know, magic elves or whatever, making the games. And I think, you know, the more we sort of humanize the development process, I think, the more realistic the expectations are going to be. And I think it also just help foster the industry's you know, creative direction, I think a way for more of that. Corporate a space. Yeah,
Ben 9:17
you know, do you want to maybe just talk about the response that this game has received, which, you know, at least from my, from my kind of where I'm sitting, it seems like it's been overwhelmingly positive and what that's been like,
Tali Faulkner 9:30
Yeah, I think like, you know, the thing I kind of think about is, like, the response has been really positive. And it's a genuine positivity and an earnest one, like, it hasn't been, I think, one with people, you know, phoning it in, or, you know, just trying to, you know, I'm just sort of reflecting back on when I worked at a university and whenever, you know, indigenous people would make things you would sometimes get these responses from people who were like, quite paternalistic, being like, are very good and it's like, back off like You know, and they're very clearly not seeing the point of something. And where I think with this, you know, is this really great thing where, you know, especially, I'm also a millennial, right? And it's this whole thing with a lot of other millennial players came in, and they were able to really grasp the concept because it was really, relative to them. And so like, I think it's this whole thing where, yeah, I'm really excited with the response. And I think the critical acclaim it's gotten so far is really cool. You know, I think probably seen more players coming in over the years. Because I think at this point, it's very much one of those games where a lot of people don't even say what it's about, they just say, go play it. And like, you know, I think I think that's part of the fun. Yeah, and
Ben 10:43
I, you know, I'm glad you kind of touched on the way that the game works, because I think Phil and I have been really interested in the way the kind of story structure of games is kind of playing out. And with this game, it feels like it's doing such a great job of kind of slowly teasing things out in the environment. And maybe you can talk about easing players into these kind of deeper political themes, as opposed to maybe dropping, you know, elements of this story in sooner about kind of anti fascism or un occupation. Why was it important to kind of do that, that slowly working the player into these kind of broader political concepts?
Tali Faulkner 11:26
Yeah, well select one of the thing I would say is that, a lot of times when people are hacks at writing, they just sort of try to tackle the most common issue. And they'll breeze over that quite quickly with a judgement, I guess, like, like, though, I'm talking more as like a broader, you know, when people are trying to sort of make a political statement to, you know, essentially make a product like, you know, we've all seen sort of how brands and stuff have tried to, you know, incorporate political, whatever. But like, I think the best bit of advice I ever got was from one of my mentors, when it comes to like, doing, you know, just looking at the beast of neoliberalism is one of my mentors, he used to say, this idea of like, slow down, and play, like, go into that gray area, and articulate it, see what's going on in that space. Slow down, you don't need to come out with the statement yet. Make some observations, you know, like, one of the ones he used to always point out was this idea of, in the Australian nation state, there was always this idea of, you know, progress or change when it comes to, you know, Aboriginal issues and things like that. And what he did in that space is he used to look at that and go, actually, when you go and look at all this legislation, like on paper, the actual policies that have been written, the only thing that's really changed over the last 150 years is the wages, officers get paid, you know, the occupation premise is still there from the start, once you start to look at this whole thing of, okay, that's what's changed in the actual documents and his way of like, showing it out. It's really, I think, quite stunning, the inaction that's happened in the nation state towards that stuff. And I think it's the kind of thing where, with Omraam, you the idea was easing players in, but also doing that kind of thing where, you know, with the world, it's all there from the beginning, you know, you see the occupation status from the beginning, you see the, you know, something's not quite right. But I think the the thing about that is, players aren't necessarily conditioned to see it yet. You know, they don't have the context of knowing why jets would fly overhead, or, you know, what are these giant, you know, bronze buckety things that aim, you know, you when you kind of go, it's obviously, it's a bullet show, right. And it's this whole thing, where that's, that's part of the theme of the game around near liberalism, where the, you know, being able to ignore is there from the start. And if you are able to pick up on what's going on, you will see through and you'll be able to see what's coming, but I think, you know, part of the idea of the game was to sort of, you know, make that part of the gameplay and the environmental storytelling is that if you can't, if you're not paying attention, it seems like a, you know, out of nowhere twist, but the reality is, it's been signposted from the start. And I think the thing I've said a lot of times about that is kind of this idea of like, when the bushfires happened in Australia, there was warning for the last or the, you know, the previous 20 years around climate change. You know, we all grew up, probably seeing stuff on TV about, you know, the greenhouse effect or climate changes and stuff like that, like we all know this from when we were like five, and now, you know, 20 years later, it's this thing where those chickens have come home to roost, so to speak, and like, basically the idea of saying how could no one have predicted this is one of those things that happens in this and, you know, we saw the same thing with COVID. I don't know if that might have gone a little bit off topic there. But I think there's, there's this ways you can sort of write this stuff in. And I think, part of, you know, having, you know, bits in the game, which are sort of reflective of the reality we live in, I think, you know, there's, there's a way you can do that, which is like, you know, one thing I kind of think about is, like, how, you know, certain so called Radical or progressive messages become normalized over time. And, you know, it's that whole thing where certain people will kind of say, like, you know, corporations are bad, right. And that's become a very, I think, normalized statement. We all know that, right? We all know, certain billionaires not paying taxes and things like that. But I think like, you know, for, you know, a modern, politically savvy audience, you've got to go a little bit further than that, like, you've got to, like, you've got to, I think, get a little bit more meat into that sort of like argument, you've got to talk about why you have to talk about, you know, different elements of it. And so like, I think, sitting slowing down and playing with those assumptions and ideas and things and just articulating the thing, and just figuring it out. And I think, you know, for me, that's how I kind of want to approach this stuff in the future. Because I think if you cast your net too wide, it's a little bit
harder to make a strong point. Whereas like, if you're just laser focused on something you can really explore, you know, what's going on?
Phil 16:33
Yeah, you know, I mean, there's so much in that answer that I want to unpack like, first and foremost, I really appreciate that, that perspective around play in relation to developing, whether it be a political message, or you know, a socio economic message, or whatever it may be. I think that that ethos really is shown in the gameplay of boomerang generation. I mean, on one level, it's kind of trite to say, like, Oh, it's a photography game. So it has, its it deals with perspective, like, that's kind of obvious. But on another level, I think the game does a really good job of, of through, its through the mechanics, mechanics, articulating what you're saying, of developing a perspective. So you know, you go through these levels, you're kind of forced to find these objects, or you know, different things in the environment and take pictures of them. And in turn, it kind of forces you to have your own perspective on what you're seeing and engage with the world. And, you know, like you said, the game uses messages, like, Fuck fascism. I can't think of it verbatim, but like, you know, essentially, cops, you know, do harm or do violence, and, you know, cops, fuck 12 You know, all that kinds of
Tali Faulkner 17:44
stuff. And I'd say, like, with that stuff, you know, because that, especially the final level of the DLC, right, like, when the game originally came out, that was one week before George Floyd was murdered, right. And with the DLC, you know, Thor, and I were like, thinking, like, we were planning to do like, a little expansion pack, you know, before the game came out to sort of like, oh, you know, to give us like, a little chance to address any issues with like, the game or whatever, but like, you know, with the DLC, and especially that final level, it was about, you know, being truthful, I think, to like, what was being said, in those communities, you know, and like, not, like, you know, both sides in or whatever, you know, what I mean, like that, that thing that a lot of these games usually do, where they'll say, you know, not all cops or something, right. Like with this, it was like, let's actually take the side of, you know, the pressed if with this with this thing, and, like, let's use the language that is like being said, right now, you know, and I think there was like, a lot of power to that, you know, because, especially with like, a lot of the graffiti in that level. It was about like, taking, when I say taking, taking multiple angles or sides of it or not saying having right wing discourse, that saying that, you know, cops have heroes in there, no, but taking more of that thing where you saw different perspectives on how people were interpreting the, you know, protests, like I'm thinking of, you know, there was, the message coming out of community from what I noticed was usually, you know, that idea of, like, you know, police stop coming to our community killing our family, right. And that was a very unifying message and something that I kind of, like, you know, for me, I sort of related that back to you know, with my family, you know, what, 100 years ago with the, you know, British state coming in and killing family, you know, to take land and stuff like that. But I think, you know, there were also other things were and you know, we saw this if like, you pressed Twitter all day, like me is you know, you'll see some people and they've got the more you know, anti capitalist approach to it, or they'll have you know, this more You know, discourse centered in, you know, online politics or, you know, this kind of stuff. And I think part of some of those messages was to sort of, you know, place them all together and say, this is like, you know, this is this is what was happening? You know, I think there are some that I definitely agree with, but there were some that were also said, and I'm not necessarily like, what's the word, the judge of whether or not it should be settled or not, but I'm going to put there anyway to at least sort of let that message sort of be spoken for itself. And, you know, to put that in the game, and, you know, I think there's sometimes as I said earlier, like, it's this whole thing of slowing down and moving it around and stuff. And I think sometimes the answers are not comfortable, but I think it's proper to sort of put them in there, but not just sort them in a way that are that are, you know, going against sort of what's been said. But, yeah, that all that and more from a $15 photography.
Phil 21:03
We'll just one one last thing about that kind of tangent. This Out of curiosity, one thing that I was kind of interested in was, again, just for the for the listeners, the main kind of mechanic of the game is photography. I'm curious, as somebody who like loves, you know, like mecha anime and things like that. I've always, like kind of yearned for the show that kind of places the the main point of view from like a civilian kind of out looking like the event or, you know, something like Gundam more in the pocket where you're kind of like in the little kids point of view. I'm curious, like, what, what boomerang generation? Did the general conceit of the game start as a photography game? Or?
Tali Faulkner 21:47
Yeah, so like, I think the original prototype that I made was, I mean, like, I've said this a couple of times, but it's like this idea of like, you know, I wanted to just learn with Unity one thing and do that really well. So it was like, Okay, this has the camera work in a 3d space. Okay. Let's figure it out a little bit. Okay, we'll make a photography game, you know, that way, the game plays or focus really around the, you know, how does, how does camera work in 3d, and, you know, Ray casts and long casts and whatever, right. And I think, you know, for me, there was, like, you know, in relation to putting the mecha stuff in and the Kaji stuff in. It was sort of like, if it's going to be, you know, a photography game, why not make it an interesting photography game, and something that I like, because, you know, originally, it was much more like, oh, you know, you're just a courier, and you're just walking around a town and, you know, you just delivering stuff. And it's, you know, just going to be sort of, you know, just scenery to take photos in. But I think, you know, there was this whole thing, where when I started to think about it like that there was this whole, like, oh, yeah, what if, like, you know, you get to one area, and it's just like, you walk down an alleyway. And there's like, an, you know, an arm of a robot just sitting there, and the cops just like, casually, like, you know, garden, the thing hanging out, it's like, you know, just pushing you away if you get close and stuff like that. And I think it was this whole, like, light bulb moment where it was kind of like the whole thing of, you know, talking about base game, we've talked about DLC a little bit. But like, you know, what, that base game was something of like, oh, yeah, what if, like, you were someone who was going through one of these, you know, neoliberal collapses, or whatever, with, you know, robots and kaiju and stuff, Howard, today's, you know, space react to that. And I think it was this whole thing we, you know, with, like, the bushfires that happened in Australia, at that point, it was this whole thing where, you know, the tragedy was there. But so were the memes. Does that make sense? Like, you know, I think it was just that whole thing when, you know, like, as I started to realize that this neoliberal system that responds to this stuff in response to crisis, what if you just accurately portrayed how that would do that with a different boundary object, instead of it being a bushfire, it's code, you, you know, Mecca thing, right, tying that off and wrapping the knot around that was with this protest level, saying, the thing that is there to what the government says is there to protect you is now going to be the thing that tries to kill you. Right? And, you know, that's very much a look at, you know, what happens not just last year, but it's this is this has been going on forever, really. And I think it's just one of those things where, like, what I'm what I mean about that is like, you know, this sort of, what would you call it dominance mentality has been, you know, as one of the first things my family experience when Europeans came to Aotearoa, you know, and I'm sure you probably have family stories of well, that go back quite a long while where this is not a new thing at all. The tactics have changed, the technology's changed, but the ideas behind it are all still the same stuff that has been going on for you No, forever. And I think it's one of these things where I feel not dumbing that down and having that as a thing, which is very, you know, very much a like, this is this is the reality of this situation. I think that, that, that get that lens at a strength that I think is very hard to dodge, you know, and I think that was the point of the base game and the steel ceiling with the base game, the kodjia was very specifically this thing you cannot say does not exist, it's not a hypothetical, or something that's very hard to see, it's a physical thing that you've seen in a level, you know, less than 50 metres away from you, you know, you've seen the terror, you've seen the destruction firsthand. And so when you go to the DLC, and you see these, you know, I guess like, like white Neo liberals to sort of sitting in the space being so comfortable with their existence where they don't have to worry about any of it. And they've got, you know, these little Talking Heads telling them that, oh, actually, your life isn't that bad, you know, stop complaining, don't criticize the government, you know, like all this shit, when you see that, and you've been through the reality of what they're talking about, you can see the absurdity of it. And you know that that was the point with those things, because that's the reality of, you know, what's usually happening in these situations.
Ben 26:19
Yeah, I so I kind of wanted to get you to take a you know, you've said in a couple interviews that, you know, the boomerang generation is this idea of the last generation. And I feel like I've been seeing people, as you know, in some ways, again, true to what you're saying, as I think climate change has begun to infect it, or affect a lot of the kind of global North, you've seen this growing kind of realization, to some degree that, oh, this is this is happening, this is going to happen. And then there's these questions about, you know, what is the role of storytelling? What is the role of art, if this is all going to end? And I'm wondering if you can maybe talk about how your game in some ways maybe speaks to that? Or answers that question, and maybe you can talk about how you think about that?
Tali Faulkner 27:05
Yeah, I guess, like, you know, from a real, like, cultural perspective, I would say that, you know, you know, the end of humanity is not necessarily the end of the world, like in terms of I think we'll pass on, but there will still be life here that, you know, finally gets a break from us, right? Like, one thing I kind of think about is, like, when COVID happened, you had all these cities go into lockdown. And you finally had a, you know, blue sky in place that have never seen one in, you know, 5060 years right. Now, that's not to say, I'm, you know, an existential, you know, like, Dread cannibalism, I'm saying we should all just die, and then let the earth recover, obviously, I'd like to still exists. You know, one of the things about the ending of the game is that you see these crabs on the headline they're looking out, right. And, you know, that's a story that sort of comes from where I am, and, you know, it's this idea of, like, we sort of have the story that, you know, the crab is very specific to that area, because it's this idea of when humans are gone, the crabs will still be there, and they'll be the ones that are, you know, continue to sort of look after, you know, the land there. But yeah, the idea around that is to say that, like, there will be a generation at some point who has to inherit all of the mistakes right? After inherit everything that has caused the world to end, that subsequent generations that knew about it when they were young. And when they went to go into assume those roles continued to just keep the cogs turning towards the end, right. And I think, you know, the thing I kind of think about with that is like, you see the sort of younger politicians now getting into the space, and, you know, there's usually this immediate joy of are finally we've got someone in here who can, can start to shake it up the system or, you know, fix it kind of thing, right. And then, you know, one thing that me and some friends have always sort of notices that very cynical thing, when you start to see that it eventually goes, that they get rode back down to where they are now going to just accept the system. You know, that's not me necessarily saying, you know, we will get the pitchforks out tomorrow. But I think it's this whole thing of, when you see that system, do that over and over again, there's going to be a point where it can't do that anymore, because it's going to end right and the young people who are going to have to sit by and watch it happen, are going to be this final generation. That's what I think the point of this, you know, Omonia generation is they're the people who, you know, they could be us or they could be the Zoomers or something, but like, they're going to be these young people who can see that it's screwed up. And, you know, by the time it's a giant kaiju it's too late because you can't act on that. It's, it's something that you know, even these giant mech robots are getting absolutely scrubbed over. Because the problem is too bad at that point. And you know, the example of that would be, you know, when it comes to these, you know, bushfires or, you know, climate change, or like, let's say, for example, this pandemic, you know, before we started the show, we were talking about these variants, strains and things like that, you know, how's the system gonna work when the strains, basically, you know, there's 10 of them, and they're all just as deadly as one another, right? And you have, you know, this whole thing where it's all bad at that point, you know what I mean, and there's no fixing it. And I think the reality of that is, you would see that the system will do what it always tries to do, which is to say, learn to live with it, normalize it, you know, what I mean? Like, it's just this thing where that system is very good at getting people comfortable. And I think that's part of the the idea of the game is that, that comfort is the problem. You know, like, it's the, the the comfort there has made it so that the people in this, you know, kaiju, apocalypse or whatever, you know, more than fine with movie posters, or, you know, movies being made talking about, you know, how screwed everyone is, but at least it has like, you know, an action superstar or something in there. You know what I mean? And yeah, I hope that answered the question. I don't even remember what the question was, this is just a big, big talk.
Ben 31:18
It did. And I think it I think it gets to like another question, which is, like, I wonder, I wonder how you think about, do you hope that the game is something that is primarily something that's going to get people to kind of look at these systems and understand, you know, capitalism, or do you liberalism or colonialism? Or do you hope that it's something that is kind of galvanizing that it's something that people look at it and are like, okay, like, maybe I am starting to think about grabbing the pitchforks, like, do you do you think of that, primarily as something that's like, this is reflective and educational? Or something that is, like you hope, kind of pushes people towards action after they get done playing?
Tali Faulkner 31:54
Well, like, I hope so. And like, I think there's, there's a moment, I think, for me, when I think about action, you know, and I think, you know, a lot of times, I think that there's this assumption that you know, and this, I guess this comes a little bit from this idea of online personality, sort of, uh, but I think there's sometimes this assumption that like, you know, unless you can, you know, attack the top or completely, you know, get it in one go, it's not worth doing, you know, like, unless, unless you could become the president next, you know, in one political cycle, then it's, it's all no hopes and stuff. But like, I think the thing I kind of think about is, like, you know, if you can activate, you know, certain individuals to take agency in their own lives around some of this stuff, maybe that's not so much a bad thing, because you never know that, you know, like, maybe the guy who's working a nine to five, you know, like, you know, retail job or something like that plays this. And the thing we've noticed, right, is that a lot of these players, some of them have gone on to want to do photography, right? They've picked over this is the first time they've really had a chance to be creative, because a lot of times that's kicked out of you in the school system. And I think it's this whole thing where, you know, if they're becoming photographers, but they're also getting this, you know, message towards the end of the day, take photos during the protest, right. And that's gamified in a way where, you know, you're deducted points for taking photos of people's faces, you know, you're not doing it for money anymore, you're doing it for, you know, shares on social media to get the word out there, and to show the truth of what's happening with the violence of the state and things like that. You know, I think I think that changes and I think, you know, if it's this kind of thing, where this nine to five, average, Joe picks that up, and then does learn photography, there's a chance that, you know, maybe some of those messages will be something that they can take, you know, into their own agency and do something with that. I think, you know, what, one of the things I remember, one of our mentors sent quite a lot is this idea of building agency over dependency. And I think that's something that, you know, especially in sort of, I mean, for lack of a better word, like millennial politics or whatever, sometimes it's this whole idea that you know, you just put your self determination into an individual that you become sort of dependent on like, you know, we all probably seen people who are sort of you know, they see the squad or justice Democrats do something and they've put all this hope and energy into them and then they've seen that nothing or not necessarily nothing but they see that you know, the sometimes there's just nothing that comes out of it, you know, when you see like, say, like Joe Biden or someone get in and he's basically decide Did that he's going to do nice capitalism from now on or whatever, where it's very, like, still not going to change anything about the ice camps or, you know, defund the police or anything like that, and you just feel very, like, can feel very defeated. But I feel like if there's more this thing where people can sort of get a bit of agency and, and start to sort of not be dependent on others, you know, to do their own sort of action around the stuff, maybe that's a good thing.
Phil 35:29
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of that, you know, in an interview you had I think, with like, indie game, indie game, one of the indie game websites, you talk about respectful design. And you know, both both Ben and I come from, like an academic background that we used to use to be in academia and things like that. And something that was really fascinating to me, as I didn't have a chance to look too much into the respectful design, philosophy, but I'd love for you to talk a little bit about it from what I from what I've gathered, you know, when one scholar was saying, respectful design means valuing inclusivity people's cultures and ways of knowing through empathetic and responsible, creative mythologies, it means deepening our relationship to the lives of the materials that connect us to the craft of making. And, you know, something I think a lot about in the games industry specifically, is, you know, it's definitely more inclusive and diverse than it's ever been. But at the same token, it's still very Eurocentric, and highlights very specific ways of knowing we're going to continue on that path. And I'm curious, like, I think boomerang generation, for instance, you know, embodies or personifies, what I'm gathering from this respectful design philosophy, and I'm wondering if maybe, I think it'd be great for the listeners to hear a little bit of your perspective on that. And, you know, obviously, you don't need to go into like, a philosophy lesson or whatever. But just like, what are some of your thoughts? You know?
Tali Faulkner 37:01
Yeah, we did that last question. Yeah, okay. Well, so like, I would say, you know, one of the things about respectful design is like, I got taught it by personal machine. And he was actually one of those original design students, right, when design was first becoming a academic criteria in, you know, the, like, when design was being introduced the academy as this is actually a thing that is, you know, far more than just drawing shapes or pretty pictures or whatever. Right. And, you know, I think the most dominant form of design at the moment is human centered design, right, which we see often in, you know, apps and things like that, where it's that same idea. You know, Norm, he taught me specific models of how to sort of do that and explained, you know, he took a lot of patients with me, because it took me a while to get it, but I think it's this whole idea that, you know, actually, like, you know, differences isn't necessarily a bad thing. And being able to see where, like, we share commonality is a really positive thing as well. You know, one of the things we used to sort of get students to do is try to negotiate difference around something. And I think it was this whole thing where, you know, at first, you know, because he would sort of teach me how to do things, and then he would sort of give me little assignments to do around sort of like, how, you know, how can we incorporate this in the classroom and whatnot. And at first, you know, me being someone who did arts during high school and did a media degree, was this whole thing of making apps that would be very, you know, like, regardless of what you put into them, the thing that came out at the end would look so nice and beautiful, and it make it look so professional. And he said that don't do that. What you need to do is give people the agency to fail and then not agency to fail, but more that idea of like, you need to allow people to not feel as if they're, they're sort of, you know, they're not being challenged on this scale of how would you put it, like I said, human centered design thing, like we often see with a lot of these newer apps and stuff where, you know, everything looks very slick and professional and say, for example, I'm thinking of something like say, with Facebook, you can now do these posts, where it will automatically generate the image template for you, and looks very nice and or say, for example, like a Snapchat filter, or, you know, the stickers and things like that. And so very clean and professional and looks very nice. And I think, you know, for me thinking about this whole thing of respectful design. You know, with the game it was about like, giving players the agency to create and not telling them, which is the right way to do it. You're the one who's actually going to sort of use your own, you know, standing and your own style. Print to date and be like, No, this is what I think is good. This is what I think it's a good photo. And that meant giving them the amount of tools where they could break the game very easily. You know, like, if they just underexposed the photo and put the contrast up to have it just be a black photo, right, and it still gets some points for it. Because, you know, scoring is generated before then, but like, you know, that's pretty funny. But the counter to that is that now that you're giving people all this agency to do whatever they want in that space, the shots that can come out, are going to look even better
Ben 40:33
I do, I do kind of want to say one of the things that was like, one of the most impactful things for me, in playing this game, especially I think the base game is that there was a lot of freedom and taking the photos kind of throughout the game. And so I just took massive photos, and like a lot of them were like, deeply, deeply shitty, like, I was just like, kind of constantly constantly clicking. And so that freedom felt good, and it was exciting. But the most meaningful moment is that moment in the kind of the end when you're coming up on the kaiju. And my first playthrough of that moment, I'd kind of almost immediately again, because I had been kind of felt conditioned to just like, take a shitload of photos. And so I immediately took a photo, and then the game just ends. And I was like, oh, no, I want to I want to sit in that moment more. And so like roll credits, booted back up that scene, and then got back in there. And then that time was able to just like sit around. And so, you know, I'm hearing what you're saying about kind of giving the players freedom. But I also felt like, there was a moment where when I bumped up against your kind of hard choices, that in some ways was like one of the most meaningful parts of the game for me, so maybe you can talk about that,
Tali Faulkner 41:46
I think, you know, like, from what I understand, for respectful design is not a free for all, either. I don't think it's this whole idea that you just don't come together and, you know, magically, you know, magnetically click everyone together, and it's all good. I think there's, there's usually ways of positioning, you know, like, putting it in this game was another thing of saying, we know, it works, you know, we've seen what the players are sort of come up with at the end, and the sort of agency that sort of been instilled in them, you know, after they've sort of played the game, and, you know, had the reasons to want to start to want to learn more about this, you know, I think one of the most positive things that can come out of this game is that, like, if a player plays the game, it doesn't pick up on any of the things we've talked about in this podcast. But, you know, a couple years from now, the same stuffs happening, because why wouldn't it? You know, it's not like, I think a lot of people seem to forget that a lot of the Black Lives Matter stuff started under Obama, not Trump. You know, it obviously got exacerbated by Trump, but I don't think Biden's gonna fix it. He's obviously shown through his, you know, responses to stuff that he's not going to hold the police accountable when they do this. And, you know, I think it's this whole thing that maybe a few years from now, because the person who played it was, you know, let's say they were 17. And then three years from now, they're 20. And they've got a little bit more of a grasp on how or what's going on in the world. They're not necessarily in the game and mentality anymore, if that makes sense. Like, just 90% of their existence is consumed by games, and they go back and they replay it, and they go, Oh, hang on. This is all really relevant again, now. And they realize, you know, maybe they pick up on some of those breadcrumbs, and they go and find where that starts to connect up. And so I think, I think I think that's, that's like a really positive thing that, you know, you can do with these kinds of games. And, like, you know, hopefully, I'm still around to make another game. But like, if, you know, with the next game, the idea is to do the same sort of model in terms of this idea of leaving those little breadcrumbs and letting players sort of figure it out. Because I feel you know, it's, I think it's really important now more than ever to start to do that, because I feel, you know, this is something I kind of think is that like, I think games for a longest time, especially when it comes to you know, the narratives and themes and stuff, they've usually just fired that like, model of storytelling from the 80s where it's this, you know, like good versus evil or that's kind of where I see games at the moment and lino like, that's why it also in the DLC, I'm not afraid to like, you know, fling some water, like, get the cup of water and just flick it towards the biggest studios there when they are very obviously trying to cash in on you know, this idea of liberation or what would you call it like, your sort of watchdogs game that tries to touch on you know, totalitarian fascism, but at the end of the day has actually Antifa other real fascist as its, you know, core discussion point or you know, you've got this saw Cyberpunk game that comes out that basically has a line in it that says not all cops are bad. And as you like actively helping the cops as a side mission, and like I mean,
Phil 45:08
it's kind of like what you're kind of like what you were saying about, you know, way at the beginning of the conversation that is kind of these big corporations, these big companies that end up CO opting political movements to make them palatable for the general public without actually developing any kind of perspective on the thing that they that they make their 40 hour narrative driven game about. I think I think Ben has some questions about maybe whatever this next next game might be. But I think one thing I wanted to ask one last thing to ask what boomerang generation is, as you were kind of articulating just then the industry at Lisa and a trip at the triple A space tends to have a problem with throwing narrative in terms of cutscenes and things like that, at problems in order to solve the problems that they're that they have with whatever kinds of ideology that they're talking about, you see that with things like Far Cry six and, and everything. One thing that's really interesting to me about boomerang generation is, in my opinion, this kind of idea of the importance of bearing witness to events that you have little control over. And this goes to what you were saying about us being Millennials or even the the Gen Z folks. In a way, it seems that the game is arguing that taking the photographs is a form of taking back some kind of power, and a helpless event or, you know, some form of activism and an event where you can't really find it out. And I'm curious, like, why was that important for you to, to structure the game in that way, especially in an industry that I think is very hostile to those kinds of perspectives on on telling a story. And then in the medium?
Tali Faulkner 47:05
I'm thinking about that a lot. Because like, I think that idea of like, having the game where you are in that place where you have to take photos and everything. And like, bearing witness, I guess, I think this is a bit of a tricky one for me to answer, I guess, I guess the thing I kind of think about is like, you know, it kind of comes back to sort of saying a little bit earlier about that whole idea of, if you're an indie basically have no real risk when it comes to like, you know, if you especially if you don't have a publisher, like go in, like a like, one of the things I was kind of thinking about recently is like, I had a chat with someone who, you know, they were an indie developer in a country where, you know, protesting, the government could get you locked up, or get you. You know, what I mean, like, seriously harmed. And I think, you know, the thing I kind of think about is like, if you're an indie game developer with nothing to lose, and you think about the stuff a lot, you may as well just make something about it. But don't stop at the point where you think you're ending, right? I think far too often, like this is, I think, a broader thing I think about as a lot of games stories. They sort of have their, you know, like, if you ever talk to a game developer, they'll say the story is gonna just tell you the ending, and they'll tell you the ending, right? And they'll say, Oh, and, you know, whatever you need to, that's usually in my opinion, that's the first act. And you need to go from beyond there and keep, keep looking along and keep bouncing along with it. Right. And, you know, I think one thing you were sort of saying there about kind of the whole, you know, how do these, you know, triple A games, I guess, try to talk around that stuff. I think one of the things which I think might be like a bit of a, you know, it's like a guilty trait of the industry, or, you know, just the thing that's never evolved from it's like, you know, far too often, when you see that kind of thing where they need to resolve something, it's go kill the person, or, you know, go and blow something up, right, you know, it's usually just these very, it's these very, you know, just destroy the thing or hit the objective. Right. And I think, you know, the gameplay side of it, I think, is something where you can do a lot more with that, like, I'm, you know, obviously I'm not comparing myself to Hideo Kojima, but I would say one thing his game does, which is something I kind of think about and sort of tried to think about when when making boomerang he was like with Death Stranding. You know, you often sort of hear that thing of why would you play Death Stranding when you can be a postman, you know, get paid for it or whatever, but like, I think the point of that is that like, what you actually do in the gameplay there is how Out of the the theme, like the idea of connecting things up again. And the moment to moment gameplay of like the risk associated with doing this task comes back around to be sort of related to the theme again. And I think like with Boomerang, it's like, the whole thing is, you know, taking the photos, it wasn't, like I didn't, as we said a little earlier, like, we had that discussion. I didn't intend for it to be, you know, the Mac stuff, or the neoliberalism stuff straight away. But it turns out that, like, that whole process of taking photos around this is like, incredibly important to it. And I think, you know, that started to lead into, like, where I wanted to start to, you know, position the stuff and around the levels around this idea of like, resilience, right? For me, it's, I just think about it as one of these things where you have to, at some times also be, like, not positive, but you have to do things that are enjoyable, because if you're always focusing on the negative, it's very hard to, it's very hard to keep going with it. Like, I think that's different from this idea of like comfort, it's more of this idea of, you have to be able to also, like, breathe at some point, like in terms of breathe, but, you know, breathe without turning away from the issue. And it's like, you got to sort of eat it. And I think like, with this game, the idea of like, it being, you know, the joy of creativity and stuff being this thing that you do throughout the whole game, and you're having sort of fun, and you can, you know, hang out with your mates while you're playing like the the characters in the game. And you can do that whilst also sort of being in a space that is very, like, fucked. I think there's like a strengthening like it, you're gonna do that because like, I think I, the thing I kind of think about is that like, the, you know, whilst all these things have happened, a lot of people have found ways to sort of deal with them by like, staying human at the end. Like,
you know, the thing I think I'm sort of thinking about is like, with the the bushfires here in Australia, there was this like camaraderie that sort of developed around making fun of the Prime Minister, right? Like, there's a really funny video clip, by this Australian band called the chats. And the guy made a song and he's called this is he's like, Hey, everyone, this is a song I wrote, it's called, I hope Scott's house burns down, he's talking about the prime minister. And it's just a song about, he's like, calling him a fuckwit. And all this and like, this chorus is just like, that's why I hope Scott's happens to me, like, stay a great, you know, sort of thing where you can laugh, and you can go, yeah, like, This is fucked, you know what I mean? And you're gonna have like, a bit of moment to recover from it. But obviously, like, it's not gonna go away.
Ben 52:54
I think maybe just one of the last questions for you was, yeah, maybe if you want to talk a little bit about your upcoming game and your thought about kind of what you're what you're bringing forward from Mairangi into the next project,
Tali Faulkner 53:10
the idea of the game is that it's going to be this sort of experience where it's roguelike, but not roguelike. In the whole, it just randomizes the dungeon or whatever, like, it doesn't randomize the layout at all, what it does is, the roguelike element is that it's a game sort of based on that whole. You know, like, the movie The thing or alien, where there's, you know, a crew who are trapped with a monster trying to kill them. And the reason I think that's going to fit really well with having political content is because horror movies have always been quite political anyway. You know, every movie in the 1950s was about communism. You know, alien was this movie about Blue Collar struggles. And, you know, you have this sort of feminist element to it, and things like that. You have all these movies and like, even though it's not a horror movie, but I think there's that really great example of a, I guess it is sort of a horror movie, but it's not really It's like that movie parasite, which came out a few years ago, and it had this very, I think, political element to it about, you know, your sort of upper class and lower class dynamic there. And I think the idea with this next game is the way we're going to do that is twofold. One is that the monster in this case is sort of like basically, it's the like creation by the US as a bio weapon. The idea is that the crew of the ship are all different, modern political ideologies. And the idea is to say, the true horror comes from you have all these different types of different politically minded people, and they get stuck on a ship with a monster and now they have to work together. Right. So you You know, the idea is that the captain is you're very, like Joe Biden, you know, blue liberal, who's, you know, follows everything by the book or whatever. But he's, you know, basically inept that his job really, because he's, he's bound by the system that is put in there, you know, he can't actually make decisions that go against the company policy, right? You know, this idea of having these more current political ideologies and just having them all present, and then having them have to try and now do something that is like, you know, life or death, I think, you know, I haven't really explained what the gameplay is going to be. I know what it is. But it's like, one of the one of the sort of things we're going to have in the game is this idea that like, based on what happens, what you do, and we're also the entire other crew do depends on how the bonds are with the crew. So like, when it comes time to those moments in the movie where everyone sits down and goes, what are we going to do about the monster, right? They're going to fight amongst one another, and then the solution is going to come out based on your interactions, but also the off screen ones that the AI is going to sort of like have. So you know, the idea being that like, you know, if the captain says we're going to do something, and everyone votes, what they should do, then the thing that they're going to do might be totally against, like, what you're thinking, and I think that's part of the horror is that like, you don't have the, you know, you don't have the sort of power to choose how you want the ending to go, you have to sort of roll with, you know, everyone on the ship is going to choose something different to me. And I think the other part around this, which I think is going to be very interesting is this whole idea that each of the crew members is going to have a certain trait that kind of is essential for running the ship. So one of the ideas is like, if you have, you know, the technician who's the Maga, Boomer, and he decides that, you know, and he's just full of conspiracy theories, and he's, like, a bit insane. You kind of need him alive, because he's the only one he can like repair the doors, because he's the technician, right, he's the only one to keep the lights on, or make sure that the power is running. You know, if if you want your crew to be healed, if they get injured, you need the medic, right. And even though the medic has, you know, scientific racism as the, you know, thing built into it, and they might be different in some ways, the captain, you know, keeps the crew from sort of freaking out, you know, because he's this mediator of the, quote, both sides, right?
The warrant officer who's this, you know, the, sort of like fake leftist or whatever her ability is that if she's alive, the crew won't kill each other. So if she dies, there's a chance now the crew will try and like shoot each other. Like, for example, there's that moment in movies, you know, when a person locks the person in with the monster and stuff. And that's something that we're going to try and have in this game where, you know, basically, there'll be this little reactive sandbox where, you know, a playthrough might only take you like, an hour or two, you know, and the idea is that every time you play, it's going to be a bit different. Because of sort of what goes on, because, like, I guess one thing I'll say about the monster, which I can tell talk about is like, the monster itself, every time you play has different traits. And I don't mean that in terms of like, different health boosts or speed or whatever. I mean, like, No, one time you play, it'll be completely invisible, and you need to wear like, you know, thermal goggles, and another time, you might play, you know, it can travel through electrical outlets, or something like that, you know, and it's this idea that the monster is different every time you see it. And one thing I will spill the beans about here is the point of that is because it is this idea that it is a it is this monster, try to figure out what I'm saying it's this monster that can change what it does over time. But it still wants to do the same thing, which is kill and destroy, right? And so it's this monster of US imperialism, right? The monster is a US imperialism, right? And however, form it takes when it starts the game. This is how it now flows through. And it does its things right. There'll be more about that in the game. I think it's a little bit of like, a, you go, how would that fit, right? But we've written like, 60 pages about this so far, and I think we got a pretty good, like, idea of what the general idea is going to be. And as I said, because it's an experimental idea, and we're not super, you know, like, attached to having it be, you know, a super big hit, like we obviously do want it to do well, but like I think it's this whole thing where because we can be experimental with, you know, characters and things like that and like you know, play in the gray there and really start to jiggle around. This this neoliberal system, through the characters and stuff, I think there's this opportunity to really make something that's quite unique and something that's very, how would you put it? Reactive? You know what I mean?
Phil 1:00:13
Well, I think we're bound. Do you have any any last questions are kind of?
Ben 1:00:19
I don't think so. Unless, you know, unless there's something that we haven't asked you specifically that you're like, Man, I wish I wish they had asked me X.
Tali Faulkner 1:00:27
I guess the thing I would just say is, like, you know, with with Omani, like, if you are also like, having issues with any objectives, just look them up, it's fine. Like, I'm not like, I don't think I'm tied to the idea that, like, I do, like people experiencing things for the first time themselves. And there are points where I think you can do that. But if like, you are stuck, there's no harm in like, looking at a guide. I think, like, you know, I think one of the things I kind of think about is sort of, you know, like, everyone's sort of got limited time. And this is, you know, like a shorter game. That's quite consumable, in a night or a couple of days or something like that. And I think you'll have a good time. And yeah, share your photos with us on Twitter, if you can. I always love seeing,
Ben 1:01:19
hey, thank you so much for for taking, taking time out of your morning. Morning to talk to us.
Phil 1:01:25
Yeah, this has been great. I really appreciate it. Yeah, no worries.
And that was our conversation with Tali Faulkner about boomerang generation. Yeah, this was a really exciting conversation, I think both of us were kind of enthralled by the game as we were playing it. And it was really interesting to hear about, you know, how Tali conceptualizes his games and, you know, making the politics so forefront.
Ben 1:02:11
Yeah, and I, you know, the, the thing that I think I'm coming away with is like, I really love the idea that kind of Tali talks about of resilience. And, you know, the, the way that like, you know, you and I both log on to Twitter, I think all the time. And often we are seeing, I think some of the most horrible things that you can imagine. And, you know, it feels a lot, a lot of the times, like the world is just kind of falling apart. And we're just like watching it happen in real time. And he talks about this idea of resilience of like, building communities that can weather, you know, these things that are happening, but also like, finding ways to make space to take a breath, while also like not looking away, but it's something different from kind of ignoring, or trying to kind of not engaged with this, the all that kind of stuff that's going on. But it's a way for kind of laughing about it, or taking a breath or kind of supporting other people, while also kind of staying focused around what's happening. And I just, I really liked that idea.
Phil 1:03:17
Yeah, and I think the other thing that was really interesting to me, in relation to that was just thinking about this idea of respectful design, and how, you know, Tali does a better job of talking about it than I will, but essentially, like, how we can design games, or how we can, you know, navigate the various communities that we're in, in a way that, you know, allows space for others that doesn't take up space, and silence others, and how we can maybe be more considerate or invested in seeing different perspectives. You know, in the game, I think, on a fundamental level is interested in that and people developing their own perspectives, seeing the world and engaging with others. So I think all of that was really inspiring, you know, it was like a kind of a conversation where I left and I was like, damn,
Ben 1:04:13
I, you know, for me to loop it back around. So like, at the at the top, we were kind of talking about, well, why does this Why do the the politics which are like obviously kind of there and foregrounded but you can, you know, they're in the environment, and you kind of slowly are starting to tease them out, like, why does that work? And I think in some ways, it might be this respectful design that Talia is talking about that it's like, as a player, he gives you agency, he gives you freedom, you can take these pictures, you know, the framing of the photos, as you kind of talk about reinforces this, like you're building your viewpoint or you're building your perspective within this game. And then, you know, the, the kind of reality of this world is slowly kind of teased out to you. And I think that that is a diff way of kind of coming at politics in a game, as opposed to kind of like the visual novel situation where we're talking about like, your the story is kind of preordained in some ways you don't have the same kind of freedom of movement. And so I wonder if I think that maybe there's a bit of a kind of contrast there. And maybe that's why there's this difference in how they hit me.
Phil 1:05:22
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I think. If anything, I was just really struck by you know, Qumran gi generation is a game set in the future. And, and a place that I'm not familiar with, like, I've never been to New Zealand or, or anything like that. And I don't know it has like that it has a magic quality. I think just in terms of when it came out that I'm just kind of really struck by that. It feels magical in that way that Talia was able to kind of conceptualize and deliver this game that's so much in conversation with so many of the issues that we're dealing with as a society in the United States, but also, like, globally. And I think we're seeing a lot of that in the industry for games right now. So if anything, I was just really excited to kind of hear all those perspectives and to see that there's that there are like, continually, whether it's Matthew or Tali or Neil or whoever, all these kinds of burgeoning voices and industry that are kind of doing the work in terms of making commentaries on on a variety of these these issues.
Ben 1:06:37
Yeah, and being unapologetic about it and not having to kind of, like have this smarmy like, Oh, our game is not political or trying to hide behind it. I just, I think I really love how explicit Tolly is. Yeah,
Phil 1:06:52
cool. Well, I mean, if you all want to play, uhm, around degeneration, I think at this point, it's, it's on PC, it's on switch. Tali said it's coming to consoles in the future, so expected on like the Playstation or Xbox, eventually. And you can learn more about the game by going to their Twitter, which is at Boomerang generation. And you can find it in the show notes if you're unsure of how to spell
Ben 1:07:20
it. As always, you can find us at origin story underscore, and you can find me at said underscore, radio underscore lad, Phil working, where can people find your Twitter?
Phil 1:07:32
You don't think they know where to find my Twitter?
Ben 1:07:34
I don't know. Maybe they don't.
Phil 1:07:37
You can find it at 3d Cisco. And you can if you have any questions, concerns, if you want to give us some some fan mail or suggestions, yet, hit us up at our email, the origin story pod@gmail.com. And we would really appreciate it if you have the time or an iPhone to leave a review on iTunes, or I guess it's called Apple podcasts now. It really helps a lot in terms of visibility and kind of getting us out there.
Ben 1:08:09
Thanks to melody Hirsch for the cover arts. And as always, thanks to Ryan Hopper for that delicious music. You're kind of bumping your head to right now.
Phil 1:08:18
And once again, thanks, fatale Faulkner for the awesome conversation. That's a wrap on this episode but excited for the next one. And you know what, that's going to be Thursday. Every week.
