Steven James Aguilar (Heatmaps) on The Power Of Brevity In Music

Sep 9

Episode Description

Steven James Aguilar is a producer, songwriter, sound engineer, and musician based in Seattle, WA.

He has worked with artists including The Head and The Heart, Billie Eilish, Macklemore, Dave Matthews Band, and many more. He also releases his own music under the name Heatmaps and most recently put out his new record, Kissing Teeth.

We talk to Steven about the power of brevity in music, and his working theory that there are no good band names.

Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp

Episode Notes

Check out Steve’s website here.

Check out Kissing Teeth by Heatmaps here.

Visit our website: Originstory.show

Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com

Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch

Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper

Phil 0:16
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got right here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And today we talked to Steven James Aguilar. He is a producer, sound engineer, and musician himself who goes by heatmaps. And we talked to him about his new album, kissing teeth, which came out, you know, probably in early June. And it was a really fun conversation to not only talk to him about the creation of this album, especially in the midst of a pandemic, and all that entails. But also, I think, for me, it was really interesting to just learn more about the role of like, being a producer, as somebody who like loves music, but I'm always like, producer who the fuck knows of that is?

Ben 1:08
You know, I've been thinking a lot about like, alright, what is the what is the through line? For a lot of the interviews that we do, and the thing that I've been noticing, here's my head, this is an observation that I've just made, is what I think we're both very interested in story and, and kind of craft of writing. And the thing that that really, I think, pinged with Steve is the way that he kind of thinks about his songs as almost like little short stories, as many short stories, and definitely takes that eyeball of kind of craft and like, how am I telling a story? And like, what does it mean to you know, how do I make this is emotionally resonant as possible within the framing of a song. And I like really resonated with all of those, those parts,

Phil 1:57
for sure. And I think that like, you know, Steve basically gave us like, a little mini masterclass in terms of like how he thinks about songwriting, and conceptualizing, like a song from the original idea to the finished product. So that was a really interesting thing for me to hear as somebody who doesn't play music. And I also just really appreciate his honesty in regards to like, the themes and kind of the context of the album. Because, you know, it's dealing with tough subject matter, like a divorce, and kind of moving moving past that. And I think that the album does a really phenomenal job of, you know, layering that experience and giving it nuance. It's not like a binarized breakup album. And I think he has a lot of interesting ideas in terms of, you know, how do we show like these little moments that speak to these big changes, right.

Ben 3:02
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the other the other piece to that was, you know, I think him talking about, Am I Am I a fiction writer? Or am I a nonfiction writer, and him kind of landing squarely on the side of writing, like Song fictions, and trying to make something that is emotionally true, that you don't necessarily, you know, because like, he was to get you, it was kind of talking about, and this has really stuck with me the idea that, like, yeah, you have a relationship that ends and sometimes the emotional feeling of it doesn't match the reality of what happened. And so he's like, I'm really interested in trying to understand the feeling and recreate that feeling, even if the kind of facts around it aren't true in any particular way. And so I just love this idea of like trying to get at the kind of emotional truths as opposed to the kind of the the factual truths when you're crafting a story and crafting a song. I think that's a that's just a really smart way of engaging with songs, this, this idea of like, true in the way that it needs to be right.

Phil 4:10
For sure. Yeah. And I mean, I think that even resonated into how the album was produced, right, like thinking about his connection to his good friend, Jeff panky, who we also are going to be talking to, on the show, buckle up, it's a great episode. And, you know, Jeff basically CO produced the album and kind of, I think one thing I really loved was like, there was this a real sense of, of love in terms of Steve talking about his friendship with Jeff, who's also a musician and kind of this collaborative process like I think it was really special to hear. To hear somebody talk so so warmly about somebody in relation to like a creative project. So I really appreciated hearing that. And you know, I can't wait for everybody else do. Yeah. Also, I mean, he played some live songs for us. So

Ben 5:11
first time on the pod love songs. Oh, so honestly, I'm here for the concert aspect. I think we're gonna try to make it every episode now. Thank you.

Phil 5:20
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, this was a phenomenal episode. And we can't wait for y'all to listen to it. So how about we just get right in there?

Ben 5:28
Roll the good?

Phil 6:21
Stephen James Aguilar is a producer, songwriter, sound engineer and musician based in Seattle, Washington. He's worked with artists, including the head and the heart, Billy Eilish Macklemore, Dave Matthews Band and many more. And when he's not producing other people's music, he releases his own under heat maps, and most recently put out his new record, kissing teeth. So thanks for coming on the show. Steven. Yeah, thanks for having me. Congrats on releasing the new album, especially during like these crazy times. Thanks. How's it been? I was, how's it been half kind of releasing the thing and seeing it out there?

Steve Aguilar 6:59
You know, I mean, it feels great to finish anything, you know, especially with this last year, and I worked on it for a really long time. So just just kind of being free of it, in a way is nice. You know, I had most of it recorded. Before the pandemic. There. Was there a few little things here and there to do. But mostly, yeah, just mixing. And a couple added things. But it was, you know, it's tough to work on anything this last year. So,

Phil 7:41
yeah, yeah. And if you could take us back a bit to the inception of kissing teeth, like, what kind of inspired the album? Or what were you? Where were you at? When you're first kind of conceptualizing the project?

Steve Aguilar 7:57
So Well, first of all, I don't know if you can hear but my neighbors above me are the loudest people alive in the world. i It's a mystery to me.

Ben 8:07
We can't hear it on this end. But I guarantee you will be going back and be like, Oh, he was right.

Steve Aguilar 8:12
Yeah, you'll hear it probably in my in my audio here. And I will get to your question. But I feel like I mean, this is it's really spectacular. Whatever's happening up there. It's a mystery. It sounds. I've lived here I moved back up to Seattle, at the beginning of March of last year, right before the pandemic started. And literally every day and night, it goes on, like through the night. It sounds like it sounds like they are moving around a giant oak dresser, just and they just can't decide where to put it. And every day they try something different than like, No, not there.

Ben 8:52
That was that was exactly my question is like, listen, you're a sound producer, you work in music, I'm sure you have a very specific idea of what the sound is that's creating that.

Steve Aguilar 9:02
That's, that's what it sounds like to me. But most likely, it's just like a rolling chair and no rug. And maybe they're like traveling from room to room in this rolling chair. I don't know like kicking their feet. I don't know what's happening. Anyway.

Phil 9:21
It's funny, it's funny, you say that just just to continue on this tangent for a moment because we had interviewed another musician who's also named Steve. And one of the questions we had asked him was like, because he worked on this video game that was kind of all about these different home spaces and kind of developing these different background songs for these different towns. So we had asked him like, What does home sound like for you? And he was like, oh, you know, it sounds like my my wife playing the flute. And so it's it's kind of a leader so think of like for you. It's like oh, you know, that's my neighbors just throwing around furniture.

Ben 9:53
Moving a giant oak dresser from room to room. Are the sounds of my apartment.

Steve Aguilar 9:59
Oh, Oh my god, it's yeah, it's a lot. Anyway, so, yeah, the inception of this record. Yeah, I started working on about four years ago. And yeah, the first song I wrote for it was was that first the first track on the record it's called keep changing. And yes just about sort of I don't know I think that I you know, I'm pretty reflective and I think a lot about you know, who I want to be and and what I want to do and how I want to change and grow and I think that there I can be pretty hard on myself there are times when I'm like you know, maybe preoccupied with his with this like frustration and then thinking well you know, someday I'm going to change someday I'm going to be better someday I'm going to I'm going to take care of that and and get myself together or whatever and and that song was kind of about just accepting myself now and just being like you know what, yeah, maybe I will do this things and also maybe not and and either way I have to be okay with that. You know, there are certain things about me that have certainly grown and changed throughout my life of course and then there are other things that like are kind of the same and I don't know always wish things are getting it's going to be

Unknown Speaker 11:43
on the lines before food photographs folded map anyway baby keep maybe y'all stay sane

Steve Aguilar 12:41
so I wrote that song and it felt like a big relief in a way to just sort of let go of some of that pressure that I'm putting on myself and and so it felt like the start of this different sort of path of it ideas and and so the the first idea that I had for the record was it been about change and about you know, how we evolve and change and how we we grow how we let go of things and move on. And ultimately that you know, that the core of that stayed true. You know, I mean, I think that in some ways all of my songs are about that but but that was the that was the original idea for the record and and then you know, as the songs come together I feel like you know, I kind of discovered what this record was

Unknown Speaker 13:51
do we something strange way you wish to do a play in the dark looked up to see nobody was driving

Phil 14:23
Yeah, I found it a pretty fascinating opening track because it's very expansive. It's, it feels kind of flowing and a little it sets that tone, that kind of dreamy tone, I'd almost call it for the rest of the album and I could easily see it, you know, maybe showing up in the middle of the album that's kind like this kind of breakaway or breaking open moment. And I just find it really it's really fascinating. Way to open the album in it. It does kind of it does a good job of setting I think that tone that you're describing, about your about your journey and kind of what you're writing about. You had said in an interview about the album that you kind of viewed it like a collection of short stories with the theme that sometimes in relationships, we come to a place, what, where we recognize, like, the efforts of kindness that we're trying to give to our partner end up being hurtful, or they end up kind of being taken in another direction than we intended. And they I'm curious if you talk a little bit about that, in relation to how you're thinking about the tracks? Yeah,

Steve Aguilar 15:34
um, you know, it's, I mean, it's interesting, like, I think that, you know, when I was working on the, the cover art with, who was with this photographer, her name is Mei Zhang. And, and we talked for a long time about the themes of the record, and what it means to me. And we, she read all the lyrics. And, and, and it was, you know, I had some pretty clear ideas about what I'd made. But it was those conversations with her that actually helped me crystallize that, those couple sentences about like, yeah, sometimes you're sometimes like, the, the real act of love is letting go of somebody. And, and that's, you know, that's, that's in the title to which, you know, the idea of kissing teeth, you know, when you go to kiss somebody, and you knock teeth, instead, neither of you meant to do it, and it's supposed to be this special thing, and it's ruined, and painful and embarrassing. And, and there's this, I mean, it's just a very uncomfortable title. And I, when I, that's, it's a line from sleepless, and when I, when I hit on that, I was like, yeah, that, that kind of captures that. And so I was, yeah, I was, I was in a relationship for a long time I was married for, for almost 12 years. And, and so about halfway through the making of this record, we decided to separate. And, and it was, it was a complicated, it's a complicated thing, you know, when, when you've built a life with somebody, and you decide to change direction, you know, even when it's mutual, and even when it's kind. And, you know, there's not this, you know, I was always really afraid of the idea of divorce, you know, growing up, I grew up religious and, and my parents are still together, you know, after after, like, 46 years. And, and so it was just this, like, you know, you just, you just don't do it, you know, and I was afraid from seen what I'd seen in movies and TV, and you hear in breakup songs. There's just this, like, I had this idea that it had to be this really explosive, destructive thing, you know, bitter and vengeful, and all those things. And, and I think that, so it was something I was really afraid of. And once we made that decision, to separate, we, I realized that, you know, you can really do whatever you want. You don't, it doesn't have to be that. And so and so it was a really, still really painful. But it was, it was so different from what I had been fearing for so long, you know, there, there. There was a way, at least for us, to remain committed to, to being kind and still loving each other and see it, our letting go of each other as this act of love that this thing, this gift that we could give each other, you know, that you know, it's hard to explain that to a family. It's hard to explain that to people and also it's personal, you know, it's nobody's business but, but people do expect, you know, or, or, or are curious and think like, Oh, what happened? You know, what's, what happened? And especially, you know, with us, I think that people some of our, you know, family and acquaintances, and, and, and friends, you know, who knew us some of them were surprised because, you know, when they see us together, we were we're easy to be around and be kind to each other and they They know that we love each other. And, and, and so they would think, you know, what happened, what was the big reversal. And when really like, you know, this is an extension of that, you know, this is this, giving this to each other, and letting go in a, in a really intentional way that you'd have to, like choose every day to let go a little bit more, you know,

it, it's, I mean, it takes a lot of love and care to do that, you know, it's a painful, it's a painful thing. And to, to you know, you've have this. This because it doesn't just happen overnight, when it's when you choose it that way. You have to take these, these slow steps. And it's just the, you know, the Palindrome of how it started, you know, it's this, you have this reverse fiance, in a way and then, and then you separate, you know, and, and you do what you said, you were gonna do, you know, but in between, is when I wrote, you know, a good portion of the record. And some of those themes that I did not see as like, about me necessarily, but about things that I related to, and, you know, other relationships that I had had previous and, and in friendships and in stories, and, you know, different kind of, you know, more abstract feelings, some of those songs became kind of prophetic. And some of those songs came true in a way that I wasn't expecting. And, and so some of the, the songs that I wrote later, for the record became, you know, this came to life in a different way, because I was actually, for the first time in a long time writing about what was happening to me in that moment, in real time. And, and so, so it became a, yeah, the themes of the record became very, very, very real to me. Yeah.

Ben 22:23
Can you can you talk a little bit more, you said something that really resonated, which is like, I think so often in relationships, especially ones that are like, maybe slowly deteriorating, or don't feel quite right, you do find yourself, like, looking for the thing that's gonna go wrong, or the thing that like, isn't quite working for this explosive thing to tell you that the thing that the relationship, like doesn't work, but there isn't that and like, if you if you look, you're like, oh, this person does still care about me. And yet, you know, maybe this isn't right. And I'm, you know, maybe you can talk just a little bit about that, that process of being like, yeah, like, this is something I have to slowly as you're saying, move myself away from?

Steve Aguilar 23:08
Well, I think that, you know, that's what a lot of these songs are about, you know, are is like, you know, I think that well, with, with keep changing, you know, that started a different way of thinking for me. And, and usually, you know, the way that I write is that I'm figuring these things out, while I'm writing, you know, it's not like I figure it out, and I'm like, I should write a song about that. And, you know, I, I will get some little piece of something, and I'm working on it, and then I'm having these realizations as I'm writing these lyrics. So it's, it really is songwriting, for me really is a tool of, of working through my thoughts and, and figuring these things out. And, and I think that with accepting yourself as you are, and accepting the needs that you have, you know, you start, you start realizing which of those needs aren't being met. And, you know, does that what does that mean? What are you going to do about it, you know, and, and when you really see your partner, and you see their needs and the ones that are that you're not able to meet? And the ones that you it's not about trying, you know, because, you know, that's that's an easy explanation, you know, if one person in a relationship isn't trying, that's one thing, but if you're both, if you really love each other, and you're still you're really trying, and it's just not, not happening, and it's just not working. That's not anybody's fault. And so at that point, when you realize like You know, what their needs aren't being met. Some of them are, but these really important things aren't being met, and I just can't do it. And, and there's, you know, a need, or two of mine that aren't being met. And, and I've been okay with that for a long time. And it was okay. And then at a certain point, you're like, you know, what, what would my life be? Like, if I accepted myself and my needs as part of myself and said, What would my life be like if I, if those needs were met? What if I changed my life in order to do that? And so to? And for us, you know, the conclusion was to, we had to let go of each other and, and, you know, you make it's, you know, it's, it's a few steps back in terms of life quality, in order to have a shot at having something more fulfilling or fulfilling in a different way. You know, and I think, you know, there's a song on the record called Brave and stranger, that's kind of about that

Unknown Speaker 26:07
was wrong. It's too late, changing. Now is it too

Steve Aguilar 26:31
late that like, once you realize, like, I could change my whole life? I could, I could have a different life that is more fulfilling, and, and so could this other person? You know, is it too late for that? Is that worth doing? Is it worth letting go of something that in so many ways is really good? For a shot at? At something more healthy? Something better? You know, and? And ultimately, for me, I, you know, I can't say for sure, but my, I decided to go for it. You know, we both decided to try?

Ben 27:19
Can you talk about you, you said this great thing at the beginning about like, this idea of kind of realizing what you were feeling as you write your songs. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about, like, what the songs are for you? Are they in some ways? Like, I don't know, like a way for you to work through your your emotions and work through, like, how do I feel about this? Or how do I think about this?

Steve Aguilar 27:42
Yeah. So you know, I, I had this, this conversation with my, with my dad maybe 20 years ago,

about dreams. And he was telling me, you know, he studied psychology and, and he was telling me that a lot of times, you have a dream, and you know, the facts of it seem really out there. And so if you're trying to figure out what it means, going by, like the plot points in your dream, isn't necessarily the best angle. But think about how you felt in the dream, that usually is true. And, and the, the, the story of the dream is often a way for your brain to create an environment where those feelings are justified. So you've made up this scenario, that's crazy. So that you can allow yourself the space to feel what you feel like in your waking life, you're not allowed to feel. And I love that idea so much. And I in that's when I started trying to write in that in that way. So I know how I'm feeling. In all, I wrote a story, that, that I think is where the intention is that if somebody else listens to this story, they're going to feel how I felt that that feeling is going to be communicated. If you go by the facts, if you go by the plot points, you're not necessarily going to, to learn my story. But as far as like, you know, the emotional experience, it's, it's all true. So yeah, so there's every song is a mix of fiction, and unreal, but I think that all the feelings are really, really true. And, yeah, it's in the you know, and the way that I structured songs, too. There's a certain way that I, that I write that I structure songs, so that just to the story has an arc. And, and it narrows down like, you know, what I'm writing like, it helps me figure out what to say next, you know, so. So the basic, the basic thing is, you know, first verse is plot. The, in the chorus, is when you tell the truth, that's what the song really is. Second verse is also plot. And when I say plot, like I want it to be just a split second, sort of frozen and describe the whole scene around this, this one moment. And that's another, you know, real, the second versus another, like embodiment of that truth that's in the chorus. And then either in the bridge, or the third verse, I want the the narrator or the character to have some kind of change of perspective, some kind of epiphany, where they learn something or there's some kind of kind of reversal, that when you get the chorus again, there's an added dimension to, to what that means. So when I'm writing, and I get to a second verse, I know like, Okay, well, now I've got to find another embodiment of that truth. When I get to write a chorus, I have to think like, Okay, well, what does that mean? You know, what's, what's the scariest thing to say? What's the truth? Why was that first verse interesting to me? Why did that make me feel that way? And when I get to a bridge, or a third verse, sometimes I have to stop for a few days, sometimes I've just stopped for a week, because that's, I gotta learn something I am. I am the character. And so if that song is going to have any kind of arc, any kind of development, then I've got to learn something. And so that can be tricky. And, and you might notice that some of these songs don't have a third verse, or ridge. And, and part of that is because it's just like, oh, man, where do I? Where do I go from here? I don't know, I think maybe I, maybe I learned something earlier, maybe I don't need to do it. So if I can't figure out a way to flip the perspective, or or create a new dimension, or, or have a another epiphany about it, that I just don't even go there. But yeah, it's, you know, the, these lyrics are almost like a workbook book for me to just figure out, like, what are you feeling? What are you going through? Why is it affecting you this way? And what can you learn from it? You know, so it, I, you know,

these songs are primarily for me to process how I'm feeling and, and, and figure out, you know, a way to translate those those feelings into words. Yeah.

Phil 33:09
Well, a couple of things that really resonated with me on the album, and especially just hearing you articulate the process of, of getting to those things is one, I actually really enjoy the moments where the were the songs kind of just not like, abruptly ended, but they kind of ended in an unexpected way, or like an maybe not necessarily, conventionally satisfying way. And I actually found that to be to really resonate with the themes that you're exploring. And in the same token, you know, the album has songs that are dealing with kind of falling out of love breakups, you know, things like that. But if I could zero in on a, on a track, just to, to elucidate the point like on something like sleepless something that I was really curious about, is the it's a very upbeat song for kind of like, I mean, sad is kind of trite to say, but like a downer lyrics in some ways. And to discontinue on that tangent that you're just talking about, of like how you're conceptualizing. I'm, I'm curious how you came to that sound of maybe this more upbeat sound that's in dissonance with maybe the lyrics or vice versa? Yeah.

Steve Aguilar 34:25
Well, yeah, it's a few things. I mean, the the simplest explanation is just that, like, I think it's funny. I think it's funny too. You know, I was a huge and continue to be, I was a huge fan of Elliott Smith. And I just thought that, you know, that was something that he did so well. And I think that was the first time I noticed it. You know, when I was in high school, you know, you would you you'd have these great songs like baby Britain, where it's just like, this upbeat pop song on and you're just like, into it immediately. And then at some point, you start catching a few lyrics. You're like, what is this? And then you're like, This is devastating. And it's this this great, like, just the contrast makes it makes it interesting. You know, it's that sweet and salty thing, you know, like how, you know, vinegar cuts through fat, you know, it's just like, you you want ketchup on your fries. You know, you don't want everything to just be sweet on sweet and sweet and sweet or sad on sad and sad. And so, it really it really tickles me to write something just really devastated. Like sleepless. And then you know, come up with like, the goofiest baseline I can think of, and make this kind of like, you know, Jammy song. And I think it's, yeah, so it's mostly because I think it's fun. And also, you know, I, I love pop music and I don't want I don't want to be boring.

Unknown Speaker 36:04
There's no love on you, man. Sleep has been keeping secrets, all we ever do.

Steve Aguilar 36:18
And, you know, if, you know, there's a, the, the demo of sleepless, you know, it's, it's just kind of slow and, and also almost feels, you know, kind of country. And another thing about about that song is that it was it was I had this dream. And that song was actually before the breakup, too. It was that's just fiction, it's just a story. But I do, you ended up relating to it a lot. And that also does have the structure that I talked about with the epiphany and the bridge.

Ben 36:58
I love that answer, like, kind of a lot. The other side that I like really wanted to ask you about, I really, really resonated with Michael. And love that song a whole bunch, you know, it feels like that's a song that has a lot of themes of like, like confronting that loss, or kind of feeling regret and guilt. There's that line about the the echo in the canyon that I just think is really beautiful. And in some ways, cathartic. And so I'm wondering if there's also, you know, you were talking about, like, kind of discovering the feelings sometimes as you're writing the song or discovering kind of what you think, or, you know, writing something that helps find the emotion. And I'm wondering if this is a song that is maybe helps exercise in some ways, all those feelings of guilt and regret that come with, you know, the end of a relationship?

Steve Aguilar 37:56
Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you picked that one that's that one is, in some ways, the most, one of the most true and another ways, one of the most fictional. So, I mean, I like I like keeping I like the song has been open for interpretation, but also, whatever, I'll tell you what the story is. But I Yeah, so the real story, I won't go into too much, but it was actually not about my relationship. It's about a friendship that we had a falling out and, and been since patched things up. But, but that was, you know, it was really, it was a really close friend, it was really devastating at the time, and you know, it felt like a, like a breakup. And, and so I just, yeah, I felt this, this guilt of, you know, what I should have said, and what I wish I'd said and what I could have done to to be different and to have handled it differently. And I, I started I started writing this story and and, you know, when I'm writing a song like that, you know, just kind of feeling around in the dark for a line that I think is interesting. And you know, another another songwriter that I really really love is Damien Jurado. And you know, he's also from Washington and and I love that He has like all these Washington references and Seattle references so I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna start there and and drop a bunch of Washington references to set this set this scene. And so, you know, there's a talk about the Washington sign and then the second verse I talked about the Skagit River. And then in the, in the last verse I talked about seventh and Belle, which is downtown Seattle. So the Um, I was just sort of finding these these pieces, you know, and, and it added up to a verse and then I was like, okay, Christmas of 80 I can't remember your name, but I, but I fake it in time go where you take me out on the bridge in the rain pass the Washington sign. So I'm like, Okay, this is so interesting. Who are these people? And where we are, what is this relationship? And, and then in that chorus, you know, follow the echo back to the Kenyan at night, I would say everything. So that's the, that's, that's the truth of the of the song, right? Where it's like, I wish I could chase down those words after they left my mouth, and get them back and stuffed them back in and then tell you how I really feel I if, if I could just have one more chance I would I would be honest with myself and with you.

Unknown Speaker 41:01
Christmas can't remember your name, a fake ID and go where you take a break bridge in Washington. Follow the back to the king

Steve Aguilar 41:32
you, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, the structure of the record is very intentional. And it has this this arc and and Michael is the second to last song because it it kind of it restates the whole record from the other person's perspective. So in some ways, the main character of every other song is Michael is the narrator. And that's the song that flips the perspective and you hear the whole story in reverse. And yeah, until this person accepts themself, they can't be in a relationship. They can't. They can't be close to somebody. And yeah, fictional, but also, I totally relate to that. And, and it, it feels real. So. So yeah, that's the I don't know if I don't know how much of that anyone would would ever get. But I think that you listened to it. And you feel like there's something there's something going on?

Ben 42:39
Yeah, I certainly I think the the devastation especially sure. You get into that chorus and just being like, Man, I am bummed out, but I love everything about this.

Steve Aguilar 42:52
Yeah, yeah. I know, I screwed up. I just can't remember what I did.

Phil 42:58
Yeah, there was a day, Ben had sent me the song because for some reason, neither of us realized that Michael was on the album, like, we must have built this scene as a single first and then like, we're listening to the album. And we're like, oh, shit, like, this is part of the album. And there was just like, a solid day where we were both like, Ben, I just listened to Michael like six times in a row. Oh, that's my depression. holer.

Ben 43:21
Right over 1,000%. And, and it was like, so it was like, I think Phil it was it was kind of initially when Phil was like, oh, Steve wants to do an interview. And I hadn't yet gotten I don't think your album had yet come out. And so I was like, looking around. And then that came up. And I was like, Yeah, we got to talk. Oh, that's

Steve Aguilar 43:38
so cool. That's awesome. I love that. And that's part of also just a quick aside as to I mean, I I love pop songs. And I just love like my songs are so short, because I think that brevity is is more powerful. And and they're set up in some sometimes, you know, to end in an unsatisfying way so that you have to listen to it again. I I do I do that on purpose? Because I will really like it when when songs do that to me when you're just like, you know, it ends and you're like, No, you don't want to feel done at the end. Do you want to you know, cycle it so anyway, I'm glad that that worked.

Ben 44:28
Yeah, it was it was very successful in that way.

Phil 44:31
Same with sleepless I was just like walking down the street. This sleep. Yes. Both men keep and secret. I got to ask about that song. Is there is there a dog bark? Oh, interesting. Because because there was like a while I'd be walking around Seattle and I'd hear like a like a bar. And then there'd be nothing that like Wait.

Steve Aguilar 44:55
Not to my knowledge. No, there's in fact I can almost guarantee that There's no There's no dog dog bark, but there is all kinds of little sonic treats and stuff. There's I mean, there's a whole bunch of instruments and random things on that song. So yeah, arguably, there's something that sounds like,

Phil 45:15
there's something because it sounds like it's on the beat. Still, it doesn't feel like a release

Steve Aguilar 45:19
money. Whenever listen for that.

Phil 45:24
If we get if we can go back in time, I'm curious, like you said, your, your dad is a psychologist. I'm curious, like, what? What was kind of your gateway into music? Was that something that your parents played music or they put you on music lessons? Or like what? You know, take us back to when you're this all kind of start?

Steve Aguilar 45:42
Yeah. Yeah. So my dad studied psychology. But he, he was actually worked for Boeing. And he, yeah, but. But my and my mom with my mom had a variety of jobs. She was a nurse than medical transcriptionist. And now she's a writer and an editor. But they, they're both very musical, my mom played piano and flute and my dad always sang. He, he didn't really play anything but really passionate, music lover, and he would always, you know, and continues to sing along to the radio and also along to nothing. He, he, he'll get a song in his head and, and just sing like a line or two of it over and over. And, and so this, this, he has, you know, this vast library of songs in his head that, that all have these memories attached to them. And, actually, you know, because I knew that, you know, I mean, that was such a such a thing growing up, that he would just break into song. And it was always some of the songs. Some of them, I never heard the real song. Maybe five or six years ago, I found, I went and found all the songs that he used to sing, and I made them a CD. It was like 10 songs. And I gave it to him. And, you know, some of them I'd never heard before, but I could just Google the lyric and find, you know, the song and hear it for the first time. And in some cases, find out that he had been doing an impression of that singer, that was actually pretty good. And I didn't know. So I was like, Well, I found the 10 songs, that's pretty interesting. He loved it, he listened to it all the time. And then, and then I thought of a couple more. And so then I did the same thing for Christmas. And it just became like Christmas and birthdays, I can always find 10 more. And, and since then, now we have this shared playlist. And I found over 200 songs that he used to sing when I was a kid. And so there's just this playlist that we share. And now he adds other ones that that mean a lot to him or he has a memory attached to so I think it's close to close to 300 Now,

Phil 48:12
do you have any any examples? Like what were some some of the things he was into? But yeah,

Steve Aguilar 48:18
I mean, you know, anything off of tapestry and Carole King, you know, so far away was one that he would break into a lot. Some Jackson Browne doctor, my eyes, you know, Bill Withers, you know, lean on me. And yeah, let's see, and then some random 80s 80s songs that were just on the radio that that he really liked. My dad also really loved Christian crossover singer phenomenon, Amy Grant, who I also love to I, you know, she was always playing when I when I was a kid, and then I was probably, you know, 25 or something. And I was like, I found an Amy Grant CD, and I was like, oh, I should put this on, it'd be hilarious. And I put it on and I was like, this is actually great. I am still into it. And I heard all these little things. And I was like, Man, I didn't realize like, what a huge influence Amy Grant was on my music. I realized that like, that's what I've been trying to do. And so for one thing, you know, you know, my parents are both are both pretty creative. And and, and so I have this memory when I was like, I was probably five. And for Christmas, you know, my dad and my mom put together this slideshow where my dad had a camcorder and, like real, you know, printed photos and he would just like make a kind of a stop motion slideshow or he'd just like film it for a second move it on. And it was set to music And he gave it this slideshow to his parents for Christmas. And it was like family photos and us together and all these things. And it was this, this great Jimmy Webb song that was covered by immigrant called if these walls could speak. Devastating. So good. This is just this such a good song. And, and I remember being five, and, and watching this slideshow and hearing that song over and over and like getting like choked up, and, like made me miss everybody. And I felt nostalgic. And I was like, what is happening? What's going on? I'm five, I only remember the last year and a half. What am I in Estelle logic for like, what am I? What am I looking at back up, and it just felt like this magical thing, you know, that I just had to figure out and, and I think you know, I remember that as being like one of those moments where I was just like, became so obsessed with recorded music. You know, I love music. I love live music, I love playing music. But recorded music is so fascinating to me, because it captures this moment, it captures this real thing. But it's this mix of real and fantasy. And it can make you feel something. And just these different sounds and different ways of capturing sounds and different ways of phrasing something and leaving out a note and waiting a second longer to resolve it or to not resolve it. It affects the way that you feel. And you know, it's a similar thing. You know, I used to study like the comics, and I'd study like, you know, peanuts comics and be like, what are jokes? Why is this funny? Why does this make me laugh? I don't understand. And I would just like obsessively read like Garfield and peanuts, and Calvin and Hobbes and just be like, what is the structure here? Like, what is happening? I'd figure out like, the arc of jokes, you know. And so that's the kind of five and six year old I was just like, why is that making me feel something that I can't control? I listen to the song and I cry, I read this thing. And I laugh, like, how do I do that? How can I figure that out? And songs and jokes are so similar? You know, they're all about brevity. And they're all about transferring information really quickly. And the quicker you can transfer it, you get this emotional reaction, it can be a laugh, or it can be make you cry. And, and so, so yeah, I did. I took piano lessons. And I I played the trumpet for four years. And then I I started playing bass in in junior high. And that was the first instrument that I really connected with, like emotionally where I was like, this actually feels really good. And I'm feel like I'm getting closer to having that, like participatory relationship with with music that because I loved music, but then I'd like play my trumpet. And like, you know, I was in second grade, I was terrible at the trumpet. That's not what I wanted to listen to, you know, so I wasn't like getting emotional listening to my terrible trumpet playing, you know, it was just like, oh, this is not working, you know.

And then I started writing songs that like an eighth grade. And, and I had a friend who is still one of my best friends, my friend Jared McSherry who's much older. And he Well, you know, he's, he's eight years older, but at the time, it was a huge, huge gap, you know, and he had a cassette for track. And he was like, Do you want to play around with this and borrow it for a while, and he let me keep it for a couple months. And, and, and it was around that time that I found Elliott Smith, you know, and I was listening to the self titled record. And so and I was like, you know, some of the stuff was done on a tape for track and I have one of those, and no one has to give me permission. Nobody, there's no, there's no gatekeeper here. Like, I can just make something no one can stop me. And that was just the next like, revelation of just like, you know, going from studying records and listening in just the same song hundreds of times, you know, growing up just trying to figure out what are all these little sounds and what is happening and how did they do this? How did they make this to actually getting into like play with that stuff? And, and writing songs and recording them and being like, why is this so bad? Why am I so bad at this? Why can't Why do I feel nothing but shame when I listen to my own music. And and so yeah, that was sort of the beginning of it and then and I just kind of got more and more into recording through high school and, and college. To the point where I was like I just I went back to school for engineering when I was 25, and I had been producing records for a while, but they were really atrocious. And, and I, I heard, one of the bands I'd worked with, was on the, on the young and restless feature, I don't know if they still have that on the end on 1077. But like a local band would come in, and they play a song off their record, and they'd play some other things that they chose. And this band that I worked with, played a song off the record that I produced, and, and they, they played a couple other songs that I had produced on the radio, and I was, I wanted it to be this exciting moment. But I heard all the stuff I'd made on the radio, and it's like, I need to stop. This is like, for the love of music. This, this has to stop. I can't, I can't I can't do this, to the things that I love. You know, sometimes the greatest act of love is letting go. And so, so at that point, I was like, I either need to go back to school and actually learn how to do this or get out because it's embarrassing. And so I did, I went back to school, and I interned at a few different studios, and I worked for a bunch of different producers. And so that was that was my, that was my journey. I was trying to, you know, I played music for a long time. But it took a while to really connect with it in the way that I wanted to.

Ben 56:27
Can you maybe talk about you know, as you're talking about, I guess your path? Can you maybe talk about heat maps the title and like where that comes from?

Steve Aguilar 56:37
Yeah. Well, I have this I'd had I'd been in other bands before and, and varying projects that were just still just me, but under other names. But those are mostly erased from the internet, mercifully, and, and so I was around the time that I, I was just starting out producing records after graduating from school. So I did the head and the heart record. And I did a few other records around that time. And I I stopped writing for about 10 years. And stopped, stopped putting stuff out at least. And it was I just felt like, you know, the band that I had been in before. It started as a solo project. And then my friends were playing with me and it'd be it was I was trying to do more of a rock thing because I really didn't want to be boring. And it was worse than boring. It was it just what dishes didn't work. It just didn't work. You know, I was making music that that was similar to what I'm making now. And people were like, Oh, I really liked this. It's best. It's great for falling asleep, too. And I was like, that hurts me. So I was like, I'm gonna

Ben 58:08
be that is not what I want to do.

Steve Aguilar 58:11
So I was like, I'm gonna be as loud as possible. I'm gonna make this loud rock record, and it's gonna be cool. And and everyone's like, Oh, we hate that one. And I was like, Okay, well, that hurts, too. So I was like, they remind me to just produce stuff. So I did that for a while. And and so I wanted to start a new project. And just figure out like, what's, what about my writing works? And what doesn't? What about my performing works and what doesn't? And, and there are obviously things that I'm into that I don't do that well, right. So like, you know, I like Queens of the Stone Age. I like I like Radiohead. I like these cool things. But it's like when I tried to do that stuff, it would sound it dumb. And so I was kind of going down the list like, well, you know, when I write sad songs, people like that. When I write, you know, when I do these, these little storytelling things, people were always like, oh, you should do an acoustic record. And I'm like, I don't I don't want to do that. That sounds so boring. So with this new project, I was just kind of workshopping all this stuff. I was just like, Okay, what actually does? What can I make that, that people would actually want to listen to? That I can actually pull off? You know, and that was, that was the project that ended up being heat maps. So that was the inception of it, like, conceptually, the name is, well, I have a theory about van names that they are either terrible, or fine. And I think that like those are the only choices, right? Like, I don't think I feel like if you hear a band name, you're like, Oh, it's a great band name. It's not it's it's not there aren't any good ones. You know, it's sort of like when people post a picture on Instagram. They're like, Oh, There's my album cover, or people were like, you know, and it's not an album cover is just like their them in their kid. And you're like, that's not you're just like posting on the blog. I don't know if you've ever seen an album cover, but that's not what it is.

Ben 1:00:13
Just roasted everyone. Oh, my God. So.

Steve Aguilar 1:00:16
So I feel like, I feel like when you hear a good band name, this is the producer and me coming out very opinionated.

Ben 1:00:28
You're lying to yourself. Yeah,

Steve Aguilar 1:00:29
exactly. Like, they're all they're all bad. So I think that the test the test is that when you hear a band name, I think the correct response is you're like, what's your band name? heatmaps. And you sort of go, Huh, all right. You know, like, I feel like it's like neutral enough. You're like, yeah, that's, that's fine. I don't, it doesn't. I'm not embarrassed for you, when you say that, you know, and I think that's the bar. And then

Ben 1:00:56
Steve, I was I was I was straight up, I was waiting for this deep responsively here's what heatmaps have to do with my music. It's about looking for the deep emotion out of the data, right? And like trying to find like, you were talking about the dreams and you're like, Nah, man, it's just about finding the most innocuous name that nobody's gonna be like, thinking like, Oh, this is fucking stupid. Cheez.

Steve Aguilar 1:01:24
Its, you know, just know, you know, when you hear it. And I think that like after, as soon as people hear your music, then they it has to be a blank canvas, right? You know, so that as soon as people hear your music, they can attach that to the name. And then that's what it means, you know. But yeah, the real story is that I was, you know, I was I was looking at the website eater in LA, that's about restaurants and stuff. And they had a feature called heat maps. That told you what, like, where, like the cool new restaurants were, or whatever. And so I saw that word, you know, in stylized print, and I was like, oh, that's bad name. That sounds that sounds like the sort of no one's gonna blink twice that that sounds fine. So that's, that's it, but I do feel very strongly about like, that's, that's one of the only names I've ever come up with. But I'm like, That nails it. That is perfectly fine.

Ben 1:02:24
I'm truly shocked by that. But like, that's great. I like that a lot.

Steve Aguilar 1:02:30
I mean, yeah, you know, like, I don't know, I just think that they're all they're all bad. Just as a quick tangent. I mean, you know, like, Radiohead had is a terrible band name. It's so dumb. So dumb. They're a great band. And so we don't think about it. But there is, I don't know, do you guys know the story behind the name? Radiohead? No, no, I'm gonna quickly tell it to you. Because I think it's so cool. And it makes the name. Not better. Well, no better. It's funny. Funny.

Phil 1:03:08
To be clear, that is a horrible name.

Steve Aguilar 1:03:14
And hopefully this is this is true. But I did read this. So so it must be, which is, have you seen the film? Groundhog Day? Yeah. So you remember the guy, Ned Ryerson, who like runs into him every day. And he steps in the puddle. And he's like, he's like, Phil, and he's so excited to see him. He's like, Oh, no. So that actor Stephen Tobolowsky had this dream that his head was a radio. And he was picking up all these stations in his brain. And he was like, this is pretty weird. And he told his friend David Byrne about that dream he had and then talking heads wrote a song called Radiohead, and then Radiohead named the band after it. Isn't that kind of funny?

Ben 1:03:57
Yeah, that is kind of funny. It's also like, it's funny that the exact thing that you think of was the thing that he totally did. Where you're just like, a person with a radio on they're like, Yeah, got it. Yeah.

Steve Aguilar 1:04:08
Anyway, I don't know.

Ben 1:04:11
This is I feel like I'm not I'm taking this in. But I don't really know what to do with this. And now I'm going to be looking at band names. I feel like I'm worried that you've ruined everything for me. And like, I'm not going to be able to go back into the world.

Steve Aguilar 1:04:24
I hope I just enjoy my gift to you. Well,

Phil 1:04:31
well, you alluded to, this is a bit of the producer coming out and you and I'm curious, like, what do you think are the big differences between how you approach music when you're a producer versus I mean, when you're writing your own music, you're still a producer? So like, what do you think these kind of two halves of you are? Where do you think what do you think the differences come out?

Steve Aguilar 1:04:56
Well, it's interesting, you know, I mean, I think that I think the job of a producer is perspective. Right? And, and so it's pretty audacious to, you know, make your own record and self produced and be like, oh, yeah, I see myself just how I am. Like, that's dumb, you shouldn't do it. It's a terrible idea. Also, that's what I do. And I can't really do it another way. Because, you know, when you're obsessed with something, the way that I've been with recorded music for so long, and just figuring out how it works and how it lands, and, you know, that's so much of it is that like, the difference between your intention and how somebody hears it, how somebody receives it, is sometimes really vast, you know, and so, if, if I'm working with somebody, and they bring me a song, or the beginning of a song, and they play it for me, like, I should be able to feel something or know what it's about, you know, but if they play it for me, and I'm like, Huh, okay, this is what I'm getting. And they're like, no, no, no, no, it's, it's about this. And it's totally this and like, oh, that, you know, it's sort of like, you know, the, it's like that third Harry Potter movie, The Prisoner of Azkaban, right, it was a long book, so much stuff. If you didn't read the book, and you saw the movie, it's just sort of nonsense. Like, a lot of it just goes too fast. There's too much stuff happening. It just doesn't really jump from the, from the book, to the movie, right? Some of those book adaptations, you know, everyone who worked on it, read the book. So it makes sense while they're making it. But if you didn't read the book, it's very confusing. And when you're writing a song, or you're making a record, like the book is your, your lived experience, and how you feel, and like, the experience that you had, and you're making the movie, and the people who are going to come see this movie did not read the book, they don't have access to the book. And so a lot of times, I think my job as a producer is to imagine how how it's going to land? And is the message going to get across? And if it's not trying to remove some of those obstacles, or work on the writing with somebody and be like, Okay, let's, let's work on how you're telling the story. Tell me about what this experience is. Okay, that's not what I'm getting, let's get more of that book on the screen. Because it's just not, it's not, you know, we don't have the reference. You know, we don't know who those people are. And, and so, that's, that's always the challenge, you know, again, like, that's why one of the big reasons why I make my songs fictional, because if I just said it, the way it happened, first of all, very boring. Second of all, like, who cares? You know, I, it may not some of those ideas, some of those things, you know, if I write a song about moving from Los Angeles, and I say Los Angeles, a bunch, you know, that's a loaded term, for a lot of people, you know, Los Angeles means something to people, Seattle means something to people, these locations, these proper nouns, these situations, you know, that's, you're bringing your own story to it, whether or not, you know, if I'm not wanting to address any of that stuff, you know, I've got to pull that stuff out. So that you don't, so the listener isn't getting distracted by these other stories they have in their, their head, you know, I lived in Hollywood, if I say the word Hollywood in a song, it's instantly a different song. If I say the word America in a song suddenly, like what is you know, it really is loaded, and it just bleeds through the whole thing. And if that's not what it's about, then if I'm not using that, that's not the point. You know, then I want to use something else. That means the same thing, or, you know, changing it because for me, you know, Hollywood isn't this glitzy thing, it's just, you know, it's my little apartment where I lived, that was, you know,

just on my dirty little street, you know, and so, so, yeah, it's, it's having that perspective of, of guessing, like, you know, how is this gonna land for people, and how can we get this message across? And then, you know, like, the stuff I was talking about, like, with the inception of the heat maps project, just like looking at every artist as like, what did they do really, really well? And then what do they do not as well. So, I want to if if there's these strengths that they have, then I want to make that right. Record completely about those strengths and highlighting those. And if in whatever weaknesses, I want to either minimize, or let's work on him, and, and not frame it around those things, you know? And so, again, that's just about like, how do we make this land? You know, if, if you're, if you're not a great songwriter, but you have an incredible voice, like, I'm not going to bury your vocal, because then you don't have anything, then why are we listening? You know, that's gonna be, that's gonna be loud. And then we're gonna work really hard on your songs. It's, you know, I'm going to advise you not to do a shoe gays project, you know, if, if they can't really sing, but they're a great guitar player, like, Yeah, let's make a shoegaze record, you know, and let's just figure out a way to do make the, the coolest thing you can do the thing that really makes me feel something, let's crank that, you know, and, and find a way to highlight that in every song. And then the other thing that I think I bring to it is, you know, I really love sequencing, I really love the order of songs. And the way you tell a story, the way you put it into an arc, and you know, if somebody has found their, their writing style, and, or it can write really honestly about who they are, the songs are gonna go together, they just, they probably are, you know, in the right order, it's going to work. And so I really, you know, when, when an artist is open to that, I really like having a hand in, in, in putting those in order, and putting them in, in a certain context where they make each other stronger, and they and they have an ark. So, but I do like making my own records, because it's a way of calling my own bluff, you know, like, no matter how, you know, I've worked with all kinds of different, different people. And, and I've certainly, we've all had those moments at work, where you're like, oh, man, if I were in charge of this, if I were doing this, if I would do it this way. And, and this, this person, or this situation is getting in the way. And I really love making my own records, because it's a way of being like, alright, it's up to you. And then I run into these problems, and I can't I don't have that excuse anymore. So you're just like, well, if I were in charge, I am in charge of this. Well, if I were writing that I am ready to suck. No. Like, well, if I were singing, Oh, I did sing it. Oh, it's so bad. Okay, well, and so it, it just forces you to, you know, there's there's no scapegoat, you know, it's just you. And so, I do feel like, you know, not only is this important process of, of just, you know, sorting through my feelings and articulating them. But also, it's, it's really a challenge of, of making me better at what I do, because for the most part, you know, it's up to me, you know, and, and maybe this is a good transition to talking about Jeff, because I don't want to, I don't want to act like I did this completely alone, because I certainly didn't, but But yeah, ultimately, you know, it was my call and if there's stuff that doesn't work, it's my fault, you know?

Phil 1:13:34
Yeah, I think one of our one of my final questions before may read get you to play it play a song or two. As you know, Ben and I are both from from Michigan, and we both went to Michigan State. And, you know, back back then, Jeff punky was still out there. And he'd be playing shows at like, around campus and East Lansing and shit like that. And it was it was so funny to kind of move out out west and then see that he was out here and then that he had this connection to you, and that he helps he like he CO produced kissing teeth. And, yeah, I'm curious, like, what that process was like, and maybe a little bit like, how do you all know each other? And you know what happened with all

Steve Aguilar 1:14:17
Yeah. So I, I worked on this, this record with Rosie Thomas, also from Michigan. In the first time we worked together was in 2009. That's when I was assisting this producer named Blake Wescott and Blake and Dave was on from pitch of the lion produced this this rosy record. And so I was I was pretty green. And so leading up to that I was trying to do a bunch of research you know, as a big fan of Rosie, but I was watching a bunch of performance videos on YouTube and Uh, this GIF png video came up of him covering Rosie. And, and I think the first one I saw it was him and his little sister covering this, this song. And it was really, really cute. And I was like, Okay, well that's, you know, it's like on autoplay or whatever. And I was like, This guy's really good. So I went to his page, and I listened to some of his original songs, and I, I was furious. I mean, this guy. So good. And he was like, I think he was 19 or 20. And so he's a few years younger than me. And I was just like, I mean, it made me feel all the all these things, particularly, you know, he had the song called buried and winter. I think that was the first one I heard and it was just, it's it was everything that I wanted to do with my writing but I hadn't gotten there

the grass on the underside of the snow song there smells so sweet. Now all smells cool your bra on and, I mean, it made me feel all these things. And I kind of knew the story, but I couldn't tell you what the story was. But, but I felt like I knew it. And it was like sad, but also like, hopeful. And it was over too quickly. This beautiful plane beautiful lyrics beautiful singing. And, and so I was just like downloading. I was just like, finding every song I could have his and I was like playing him for people. You know, people would come over, I was working on records, and she would come over and be like, let me play this kid. I don't even know who this is. Why is he so good? What Who is this? Why? And I was just like, I just felt very competitive. And also just like, you know, amazed. I mean, I just think that he is such a such a powerful, stunning writer. And so yeah, I I liked his Facebook music page. And that was kind of it, you know, and paper window came out. Maybe a year later. And I you know, I really loved that record. And, and then. So that was 2009. And then in 2014, I moved to LA and and Jeff moved to LA, maybe four or five months after. And he posted on that Facebook music paid. She was like, Hey, I just moved to Los Angeles. Anybody want to hang out and play music? And I was like, I I totally do. That's crazy. I was like I you know, I wasn't really writing anymore. But I was like, and I'm not like a shredder guitar player or whatever. But I was like I can I know some of his songs. Like, that'd be really fun. And really, my, my real motive was like, I want to I want to produce a Jeff Yankee record, right. You know, this is this guy's amazing. I want to I want to, you know, contribute anything that I have and collaborate, right? So yeah, I went over to his apartment, and we we played together and it really felt magical for me. I was just like, you know, he's just, he's just such a special writer, such a special performer and, and amazing guitar player, amazing singer, amazing lyricist. And so yeah, he he played a couple of his songs, and I like sing harmony or whatever. And then I think maybe we played a song or two of mine. And, and I was like, we should we should make you a record. And he's like, no, no, right anymore. I don't do music anymore. And I was like, Oh, all right. He's like, Well, you should do it. I was like, No, I don't do that anymore. either. I don't make records anymore either. Okay. So, you know, so, but he became, you know, one of my best friends and we were, we were just sort of, you know, he's always playing guitar, and he was always playing something, he could figure out anything. And I I had a couple songs laying around that I'd started and, and so ultimately, I started working on my songs again, just because he was encouraging and, and he was somebody I could show my songs to and be like, Is this anything and be like, Oh, that's cool. And so I that made me make let it all in which was my first record as as heatmap And it was mostly just to like, show Jeff. And, you know, he played on that record and he sang on that record. And he was just the person that I would show stuff to and encouraged me, you know, and Rosie Thomas was the other person who I would later once I was close to finishing it, I showed it to her and she was really encouraging about me putting it out. But, but I just know that I couldn't have made it without him. And, and it was just such a huge piece of it. As well as the last one, just writing these songs to share with with my friend, you know, I was just so, so honored to I've been able to meet a lot of people that I really look up to, and it's so exciting to get to actually become friends with some of those people and, and then collaborate with some of those people. It's exactly what you wish you wish it would be, you know? Yeah, I owe a lot to Jeff and his contributions for to this record.

Ben 1:21:09
Yeah, you know, I'm wondering I'm wondering if there's if there's a particular song of the album that you want to play for us?

Unknown Speaker 1:21:18
Sure. Yeah.

Steve Aguilar 1:21:20
Let's see well, both you guys were talking about Michael

Phil 1:21:27
as I say that's really wants to Michael Eisner. And I'm

Ben 1:21:29
not gonna say Michael

Steve Aguilar 1:21:31
you down first and Michael I can do that alright, see how I do one thing I, when I'm making a record, like most of the vocals are recorded, like right after I write it

because it's just hard to go back. And it's just a matter you know, so some of the some of them I went back and re recorded you know, later because the lyrics changed or whatever. But most of the time when I'd go back and rerecord them they they just not as sad and and I liked that part. So but the the other side of that is that means you know I write the song and recorded that day and then I never play it again so I have played this one quite a bit but you know, forgive me in advance

Unknown Speaker 1:22:55
Christmas I can't remember your name to fake it in time go where you take the bridge in the rain past the Washington side don't follow the coup back to the can who would say briefing harder to lead now that I know you can see it schedule yes why I haven't come home made up your mind. Fucking weekend. Not like we planned it I know. But just needed to follow the coup back to the canyon and it would say harder to lead to now that I know who you were I

Unknown Speaker 1:24:16
can see. usin sweet spooky. I saw you smoking outside. Seventh and my Oh forgive me. I can't keep live and oh Allah. But you know me to

Unknown Speaker 1:25:08
follow the back to can you say harder to let go now that I know you were a conceit I

Steve Aguilar 1:25:34
do want to hear any other ones are

Ben 1:25:37
you you pick I would love to hear

Phil 1:25:39
Yeah,

Steve Aguilar 1:25:40
let's do it this sleepless because I know how to play that one. The other the other thing that's one of Jeff's influence is that he, he always has his guitar and like an insane tuning. Just to like make it fresh again, you know, and he's a brilliant guitar player and I am not I've played a long time, but it's just to write songs. I can't like shred. So So inevitably, I'd go over to Jeff's house and pick up his guitar and then in play whatever I'm working on, it's just nonsense, because it's all the wrong notes coming out of the thing. And so he would, yeah, then I'd be like, Okay, well, I guess I'm gonna write something. So a lot of times I'd write a start of a song at Jeff's house, just so that when I pick up his guitar, I could have something that would come out sounding like a song and I wouldn't feel so dumb and and so a lot of these songs came out with you know, ridiculous tunings and and, and there are a couple of them that I actually have no idea what the original one is. I figured them out in other ways, but But yeah, so there's that was that was one way that he he definitely influenced me

Unknown Speaker 1:27:06
when I will you had your keys in your open fist? It was all true. There is no love like the one you miss. Sleep. Boosts and keeping secrets. All we ever do is lie. Long Division. Fire in the ignition. Tell me where you go

Unknown Speaker 1:27:41
well, we both knew it was dangerous to start a fight. And I would call you there's no language comes out right? See? Booth and keeping secrets. All we ever do is lie.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:04
Blow fire in the ignition. Tell me where are you? Who are we in 2d? Only kissing teeth. Back could fall asleep. But I don't want to no more fighting. No more trying to fit no more lying in bed. See? Who's been keeping secrets. All we have to do is lie long. Fire in the ignition. Tell me where you told me where you go to me when you love that track.

Steve Aguilar 1:29:07
Thanks, guys. Man.

Phil 1:29:12
How does it feel to you know, I mean, you released the album. And in a time where, you know, everybody's had to stay indoors and kind of away from each other. So I'm curious, maybe as like a final question. What's it like, now that the album is out and, you know, things are opening up a little venue and maybe having some more opportunities to play? Like how does that feel?

Steve Aguilar 1:29:36
I mean, you know, it's a complicated thing. Because we've all been through this. We've all been through a rough year, but in different ways, you know, and I think that I had a rough 2019 And and I feel like some of those themes Well, I feel like I kind of got a preview in a way. You know, and so I know that a lot of other people have experienced loss in other ways and other people whose relationships have changed as a result of, you know, 2020. And, and so, it's interesting, because I, I feel like, you know, there are, there are themes here and there are songs here that, that do relate to this, this moment that, you know, it's, it's, a lot of people are experiencing change, a lot of people are experienced, have experienced loss, and, and are looking at a fresh start, and things opening up again, and connecting with people again, connecting with friends again, and thinking, you know, who do I want to be, you know, what, what about my life? My previous life? What about that? Worked? What do I want to go back to? And what do I not want to go back to, you know, and so, for me, it, I can see how it's possibly relevant for, for a lot of people. And I, so I hope that it, it's, it's comforting in some way for for people. And it helps me kind of re experience that story. You know, because, because, for me, you know, I again, like I, I had some big life changes, and then and then moving up here, I moved up here a week before everything shut down. And it was not what I expected, when, when I was like, Oh, I'm gonna move back to Seattle and see all my friends and hang out with, you know, be a part of this community. You know, and, and, and that's, that's just not not how it went. So, I'm really excited to, to now be able to see friends that I haven't seen in years, or to, you know, hug people and play shows, and do all those things that I was really excited about doing in my original plan of moving up here. But yeah, I'm excited about the idea of playing shows and finding a band and, and, in sharing these, these live, because I really do, I really do like, like playing live, it's such a different, such a different side. But even just now playing for you guys, it just feels really good to, to, to approach these songs in a different way. And, and, and kinda, I still, I still feel it, you know, even though it was in some ways, there was a different guy that made the record. Cuz I've grown and changed since since then. But the songs mean a lot to me. And so it'd be really, really cool to share these. And, and, and, and also just to see other bands play live. I can't wait. Yeah.

Phil 1:33:09
Well, you know, this has been a really, really fun conversation. And I really appreciate you not only talking about the album, but you know, talking a lot about your life and kind of how this this journey you've been on to get to where you are. And now it's it's been really, it's been really, really fun. So I appreciate you coming on.

Steve Aguilar 1:33:29
Yeah, I mean, I've loved it. You guys are so great. Thanks so much for having me. It was awesome.

Ben 1:33:34
Yeah, thank you so much for talking. And yeah, I just I loved all your answers. I love the way you move between, I think some really insightful answers. And then occasionally just being like, Nah, it's just this simple joke. It was. It was great. Thank you. So so

Steve Aguilar 1:33:51
glad. Thanks, man. Thanks, Phil. It was awesome

Phil 1:34:08
and we're back. Man, that was such a fun conversation. And I mean, I can't lie. It's pretty badass to dislike, have a musician on and then play songs. It was great.

Ben 1:34:20
It really like captures this, like this own private concert that we get. Feels pretty nice. I'm pretty into it.

Phil 1:34:29
For sure. And yeah, I mean, like we were saying at the at the start of the show. You know, I really appreciate Stephens honesty and candor. And, I mean, he was he kind of gave us a pretty in depth look into his personal life in relation to creating this this album and in creating these songs, I think that it was it was a very not only fun conversation, but I felt like A real connection to him and kind of learning about his life. So I really appreciated him really diving deep for us.

Ben 1:35:08
I also for me, I think he cracked the code. So I have this relationship to music, where what I will do and this is like, not particularly healthy, but I will find the looper a song that I really, really love. I will listen to it nonstop, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of like, 40 to 50 times. And then I will never listen to it again. And I'm always like, well, what what is the thing that like, gets me hooked, like gets me stuck. And he kind of he talked he talked about like, the the thing that gets in, you know, an earwarmer gets this, like songs hooks in you is ending before it feels like it should like ending a little bit having these kind of abrupt endings. So it feels as though the kind of emotion of the song has not like ended that you need more. And I think that's, that's so true in terms of like, what what are the songs that I just like, get stuck in and like, keep coming back to it's the songs that that ended before it feels like they should, those kind of brief moments. And I think that's such a, it's such a smart idea for like what works in songs. And also I think loops back really well to this idea of like ending relationships and moments in time kind of passing you by. So thematically it really works. And also it has helped me explain to myself, well, why I get stuck in songs.

Phil 1:36:31
Yeah, and that that kind of ideology in terms of making songs. That's as true about life. Like, you don't want to be the last person at the party. You want to leave a little bit before. That's how you get the invite Ben. Get the way you kind of leave a little bit.

Ben 1:36:45
Oh, okay.

Phil 1:36:50
No, no, no, you can't leave. You can't leave. Yeah, you can't leave yet. Then come back. Ben has left the room that has left the room.

Ben 1:36:59
I gotta wrap this up without me.

Phil 1:37:03
Abandon. I think we need you to come back. Come back.

Ben 1:37:06
I'm still here. All right.

Phil 1:37:08
So now we know that Ben takes things a little bit too, literally. All right, on this show. I'm

Ben 1:37:13
just I'm trying to take the advice of Steve and ends briefly.

Phil 1:37:22
You know, email us at the origin story pod@gmail.com And let us know if Ben should be invited back to the podcast.

Ben 1:37:29
Just say no, please.

Phil 1:37:33
Hashtag just say no to band return.

Ben 1:37:36
Release me. Like a genie in a bottle.

Phil 1:37:43
Don't do that. You don't want those wishes.

Ben 1:37:46
I don't either.

Phil 1:37:49
But no, this was this was a great episode. If you didn't take it, you're gonna take one thing away from it, I think is that all band names are horrible.

Ben 1:37:58
That is still the hottest take and I know what I'm here to say. So it's some time has passed between since when we did this interview. That's not true. There's some good brand names out there. Named you got the Flaming Lips. Great band name. Okay.

Okay, so just Flaming Lips

Phil 1:38:25
just The Flaming Lips only good band name in existence. Modern

Ben 1:38:28
baseball. That's pretty good. Modern baseball.

Phil 1:38:31
That's that's a good way good. So that's two. If you got a third one. Hit us up on Twitter. At origin story underscore you can find Stephens new album under heat maps. And it's called kissing teeth. It's available like everywhere Spotify, Apple Music. Buy it, you know go out to show is only when he's starts touring again. And you can find him at his website Steven James aguilar.com. Or on Twitter, SJ Aguilar,

Ben 1:39:05
and you can find us at origin story underscore, you can find me at sad underscore radio underscore lad. Thanks as always to Ryan Hopper for providing the music to this show. Melody Hirsch for the cover arts. Phil, where can they find you?

Phil 1:39:22
They can find me at 3d Cisco. That's like the 90s rapper. And again, if you want to leave some reviews we say every week but the reviews help a lot. Y'all been have been leaving them. So you know. Thanks for doing that. And you know if you know anybody who would love the show, we always want more people.

Ben 1:39:48
If you can come up with a list of good band names, send them to us. We will send them to Stephen as the ultimate dunk on his hardest of takes

Phil 1:40:00
Exactly. So that's a wrap on this episode. You can see us here again next week Thursday 5am PST 8am Yes tea piece

Origin Story

Steven James Aguilar (Heatmaps) on The Power Of Brevity In Music

Episode Description

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

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